How to Be More Creative in Your Business and Use Constructive Disruption with Jamie Woolf
Creativity is often seen as a mysterious gift reserved for artists or visionaries. But according to Jamie Woolf, Pixar’s first Director of Culture, creativity is accessible to everyone—and essential for business success. In a recent conversation, Jamie shared her journey at Pixar and her strategies for fostering innovation in organizations of all kinds. Let’s explore her invaluable insights and practical tips to help you unlock creativity in your business.
Watch The Conversation
Who Is Jamie Woolf?
Jamie Woolf is a leadership consultant, author, and the co-founder of Creativity Partners. She became Pixar’s first Director of Culture, where she led efforts to cultivate leadership, foster inclusion, and challenge norms in one of the most creative workplaces in the world. At Pixar, Jamie coined the term "constructive disruption," encouraging teams to challenge the status quo to maintain their edge in innovation.
Now, she helps leaders in diverse industries bring creativity into their work, proving that creativity is not just for artists—it’s a business imperative.
Creativity vs. Innovation: What’s the Difference?
One of the most enlightening points Jamie shared was the distinction between creativity and innovation:
Creativity is the generation of ideas—brainstorming, dreaming, and imagining.
Innovation is the implementation of those ideas—the execution and bringing them to life.
Jamie believes every professional can tap into their creativity, whether they’re solving a finance problem, planning a team-building activity, or designing a product. “Creativity,” she says, “is problem-solving—it’s about finding what doesn’t yet exist and building a path forward.”
Why Businesses Need Constructive Disruption
At Pixar, Jamie was tasked with being “constructively disruptive.” What does that mean? It’s about breaking the status quo to invite new ideas and prevent stagnation.
Jamie explains, “If we don’t disrupt the status quo, someone else will, and we’ll lose our competitive edge.” For businesses, this means:
Asking Better Questions: Challenge assumptions and explore alternatives.
Encouraging Dissent: Great leaders invite respectful disagreement to uncover diverse perspectives.
Taking Risks: Creativity is messy and uncertain but essential for growth.
Practical Ways to Increase Your Creativity
Jamie shared several practical strategies to help leaders and teams embrace creativity:
1. Create Space for Ideas
Jamie advises leaders to scrutinize their calendars and make room for “buffer time.” Use this time to walk, reflect, or think strategically. Even five minutes of quiet can spark groundbreaking ideas.
2. Embrace Play and Curiosity
Creativity thrives in a playful environment. Jamie suggests low-pressure activities like:
Drawing for five minutes to music.
Taking photos of everyday objects from unique angles.
Asking "What if?" questions to spark imagination.
3. Practice Real Listening
Leadership isn’t just about giving orders—it’s about listening deeply. Jamie recommends asking powerful, open-ended questions to understand your team’s perspective and uncover hidden insights.
Challenges Leaders Face
Jamie also acknowledged the challenges leaders encounter when fostering creativity:
Power Dynamics: Leaders must resist the temptation to dominate conversations or stifle dissent.
Fear of Failure: Many businesses avoid risk, but Jamie believes creativity requires embracing uncertainty.
Poor Leadership: A bad boss can crush creativity. Jamie advocates for hiring leaders who build trust, promote wild ideas, and value innovation.
Jamie’s Vision for the Workplace
Jamie’s ultimate goal is to leave a legacy of more humane workplaces. She wants the next generation—including her children—to thrive in environments that celebrate creativity and individuality. Her message for future leaders is simple yet profound: “Use your voice.”
Key Takeaways for Your Business
Creativity is for Everyone: Whether a leader or an employee, creativity is essential for problem-solving and growth.
Challenge the Status Quo: Constructive disruption fosters innovation and keeps your business ahead of the competition.
Listen and Engage: Real listening and curiosity can unlock your team’s full potential.
Final Thoughts
Jamie Woolf’s experiences at Pixar show that creativity isn’t just a skill—it’s a mindset. By embracing curiosity, challenging norms, and creating space for innovation, you can unlock your team’s potential and bring fresh ideas to your business.
Ready to take your creativity to the next level? Start small—take a five-minute walk, ask a “What if?” question, or try a playful activity. As Jamie said, “Creativity lies in finding what doesn’t yet exist and building a path forward.”
Stay connected with Jamie Woolf:
Website: https://www.creativity-partners.com/
Transcript (May not be exact)
Julian Hayes II
(0:02) Jamie, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. (0:05) And I have to start off, we'll start off with something very lighthearted. (0:08) And I'm curious, what is what is it that you love about tennis and hiking?
Jamie Woolf
(0:14) Oh, tennis is my happy place, because it's social, and it gets me into my body. (0:21) So if I have crazy stuff on on my mind, I go into the on the to the tennis court, I'm still distracted, maybe for the first couple minutes, and then I just lose myself into where is that little yellow ball? (0:35) And how can I hit it and then laughing with friends.
(0:38) So I have a core of friends that I play with and have for, I don't know, over 10 years, and it's just a fantastic community. (0:45) And then what was the other one tennis and hiking?
Julian Hayes II
(0:48) What do you what is it?
Jamie Woolf
(0:50) Hiking, I do almost every day. (0:53) So I can walk from my house up into the woods. (0:55) And it's my way of clearing my mind, figuring out what's important.
(1:02) And, and then I also love to backpack and turn off the phone and be off the grid. (1:08) And recently, we went to the Dolomites in Italy and hike. (1:12) Nice.
(1:13) And it was magnificent. (1:15) It was. (1:16) I don't use spiritual experiences lightly, but it was a spiritual experience.
Julian Hayes II
(1:22) Yeah, what was the the spiritual aspect of it? (1:25) That it can you even put it into words?
Jamie Woolf
(1:29) It is hard to put into words. (1:31) But I think there's something about the massive rocks and views, magnificent vistas like bigger than I've ever seen. (1:39) And how insignificant we all are in terms of the size and scale and also the geology and the years and years these rocks were underwater and how we are just specks in terms of the amount of time we're here on Earth as well.
(1:57) So there's just something very humbling about that.
Julian Hayes II
(2:01) Yeah, I also like to think though, when it comes to hiking or rucking or anything of that sorts that it's a very good creative practice, because I know for me when I go rucking sometimes, I'm just just getting out there in nature and you're starting to hear just the different birds and everything. (2:18) You're not hearing the rustling sounds of the city or anything. (2:21) And I noticed that a lot of times I sometimes have to pause and put something in my notes and on my phone just because a bunch of ideas come to myself.
(2:30) So what about you? (2:31) Is that a creative thing for you as well?
Jamie Woolf
(2:35) Oh my God. (2:35) So I had this boss at Pixar and she would say to me, so what mind blowing things did you come up with on your walk this morning? (2:44) Because she knew that I would preface everything with on my morning walk this morning, I had this idea.
(2:51) That is absolutely where I have all my best ideas when I start to walk.
Julian Hayes II
(2:57) And you mentioned Pixar and I found it interesting that you were the first director of culture there. (3:02) And when you're doing that, I guess the first question, oh, I guess let's start with how do you even land on that?
Jamie Woolf
(3:10) Well, I met Ed Catmull and he was the former president and co-founder of Pixar. (3:20) And I wasn't even looking for a job. (3:24) And I certainly didn't think I was a match for Pixar because I didn't know a lot about animation or filmmaking.
(3:31) But when I talked to Ed Catmull, he understood culture in a way that was so profound and really matched my sensibility of what a healthy culture is. (3:43) And so we had this fantastic conversation. (3:46) And after that, I joined with his mandate to be constructively disruptive, meaning there were things that were happening in the culture, like with all of the success, there was a tendency to get more risk averse.
(4:05) There was a legend of a lot of white men making the movies and they wanted to change that. (4:14) There was a lot of need in Ed's mind to shake things up. (4:18) And he said, so I want you to be constructively disruptive.
(4:21) So I led leadership development and then Pixar University, and then became the first director of culture.
Julian Hayes II
(4:30) And when you're doing that, and it's a new position and you're coming in and there's going to be changes, how do you go about getting some of the people on board who are used to doing things a certain type of way? (4:46) And it's maybe things were working, I guess, good enough even before then. (4:51) So how do you get that buy-in?
Jamie Woolf
(4:52) Yeah. (4:53) It's a balance of listening with respect and knowing what you don't know, not coming in to presume that you have some prescription. (5:01) And there was a lot I didn't know.
(5:03) So I spent a lot of time listening and talking to people and being in the trenches with people making these films and starting to have such awe of the work that they did. (5:15) And I came to have such a deep appreciation for filmmaking and animation, but then at the same time, holding my beginner's mind and realizing that I can see things that they can't because I'm an outsider. (5:29) And so having the courage with this permission that Ed gave me to push back, to challenge, to ask powerful questions that poke at the status quo.
Julian Hayes II
(5:42) Yeah. (5:43) And kind of a side question here is I'm curious, when we talk about creativity and innovation and say someone is not as familiar with those things and they come up to you and how would you explain what being creative and innovative is like? (5:57) Are they the same thing or is there a slight difference between those two?
Jamie Woolf
(6:01) Yeah. (6:01) I always think of creativity as the generation of ideas and innovation as the implementation of those ideas. (6:09) And I think everybody's creative.
(6:12) If you think of creativity as problem solving, we're all solving problems every day and you have to be creative. (6:18) You have to think about what doesn't yet exist and find a path forward. (6:23) Whether you're a parent trying to figure out how to get your kid settled in for the summer when you have a full-time job, whether you're a finance person, you have to solve problems and figure out how to save money.
(6:37) It's all creativity.
Julian Hayes II
(6:39) And I can clearly tell that you love creativity and innovation. (6:44) It's been a part of your ethos. (6:46) And I'm curious, where was this birthed at?
(6:49) Was it with you as just a little child as well or was there a certain moment where you just became just really entrenched in this?
Jamie Woolf
(6:57) Such a good question. (6:58) It goes back to my mom who was a huge art enthusiast and she would drag me to museums every weekend and she loved art. (7:08) So art was everywhere and she was a school teacher.
(7:10) And so we were always doing arts and crafts on the weekend so that she could bring those art projects into her classroom. (7:18) And she had art books and she was immersed in art. (7:24) And so I spent my childhood seeing art in everything, not just in museums, but because she had such an eye, she would point out the shade of a tree or the color of the roses or the shapes of a building.
(7:45) So I learned from a really early age that art is everywhere.
Julian Hayes II
(7:50) Mm-hmm. (7:52) And is that a skill that I think some people are going to have it more than others, but to be that type of observant where you just notice in different shades of trees. (8:02) I have friends like that where we'll go for a walk and they'll just really give a very eloquent dissection of all these different leaves and the colors and it's rustling and all this.
(8:13) And me, I've been thinking, okay, these are different colors. (8:16) This is falling down. (8:17) But them, it's this beautiful silhouette that they're painting.
(8:20) And is that something that we can develop?
Jamie Woolf
(8:23) Absolutely. (8:25) So there's this book called Your Brain on Art by Ivy Roth and Susan Maximin. (8:32) And it's a magnificent book because it documents the science of being creative and the health effects and how we can all engage in creativity.
(8:46) And there's a very low bar. (8:48) So we ran some casual experiments with WhatsApp and a cohort of people, eight to 12 people. (8:57) And we had them do five minutes of art a day.
(9:00) And it might be drawing with a crayon to a piece of music you like, or taking your phone and walking around the block and finding something you've never seen before and taking a picture of it. (9:10) What happened with these seven days to two weeks, we ran two different experiments, is that by doing that, you see differently the entire rest of the day. (9:22) People were noticing things.
(9:25) They were noticing dynamics in the room where they were working. (9:29) They noticed the tree that they never noticed. (9:33) They noticed the way somebody dresses.
(9:36) They noticed something about a problem and a way to see their way out of this problem. (9:44) So that was five minutes of art a day. (9:48) And what this book did is it documented what the mental health and other effects are of engaging in art, not just being an art spectator, but there's something about engaging in art.
(10:02) And it doesn't have to be very much. (10:05) That really does train you to have this thing that I grew up with, where you just see art everywhere.
Julian Hayes II
(10:13) And I like to think for business people and leaders in the workplace that this is going to be a competitive advantage, because it's going to have you thinking a little more outside the box compared to your peers and your competitors. (10:24) And I think this is a good segue to get into what was the inspiration for starting or co-founding Creativity Partners?
Jamie Woolf
(10:34) After 12 years at Pixar, I felt like I was ready to execute on my vision of bringing this to companies that don't see themselves as creative. (10:47) And so by bringing creativity into all sorts of industries, I could see with such delight that CEOs were stuck with problems that they couldn't find their way out of. (11:05) And if we started to draw metaphors around how they saw the problem, their imagination opened up and they started to come up with ideas.
(11:17) And it blew their mind. (11:18) And it delighted me because I was able to test my hypothesis that the creativity that sparked in a creative organization like Pixar can be translated to any industry.
Julian Hayes II
(11:35) When we're thinking about that, and that was going to be probably my next question here, is you've worked with us on Google. (11:42) There's been places like DreamWorks, I believe, and Levi Strauss and Telecare Corporation. (11:48) And those are not all in the same industry.
(11:51) And you're coming in discussing something with creativity. (11:53) And some of those I would think are going to be a little more receptive to innovation, creative, trying new things, others not so much. (12:01) And so my question here is that I'm sure there's some core fundamental creativity principles that you implemented and that each company has.
(12:09) And I'm curious what those were.
Jamie Woolf
(12:12) Well, one thing is I meet people where they are. (12:15) So in some companies, they want to do strategic planning or they want to do team building and come up with what their highest priorities are. (12:23) So my background is organizational psychology.
(12:26) So we do all of that. (12:28) But then we sneak in creativity if it's not quite where they are, if they're like, well, that's icing on the cake, or, you know, we have the board is scrutinizing the results that we're getting, you know, profit and efficiency are our priorities. (12:46) That's not the place where I'm going to say, okay, we're going to be bringing in watercolors and painting.
(12:51) But by the afternoon, typically of a strategic planning offsite, people are starting to get glazed over. (12:59) And so we say, okay, let's just, you know, have a five minute break, and we start to play a little bit, and the energy shifts, and it is kind of a magic. (13:10) And you start to hear laughter, you start to see that this play and this tendency we all have that's right under the surface to be kid like, again, my partner, Chris Bell says, we don't have to be the serious people.
(13:26) And we come to work with this idea that we have to be the serious people. (13:30) And we have to use our brains to think our way out of problems. (13:35) And it's so freeing to see that when people lift out of that mindset, and they start to feel the emotions of sharing stories, personal stories with their co workers that they've never heard before, or they start to draw and start to visualize their problems in a different way.
(13:58) That shift I think people are starved for, because it's wired into who we are as humans, we just forget.
Julian Hayes II
(14:06) How do you get the super serious because a lot of times a CEO or someone that's at the top of the chain, it's usually going to have this persona that I need to be a little more serious, a little more, you know, by the book and everything. (14:22) And how do you get them to kind of loosen up a little bit and participate and share as well?
Jamie Woolf
(14:27) Well, this is what's so surprising is that we have seen CEOs take to the crayon, I really think that most people are intimidated to even bring that up to a CEO, because then I won't be seen as a serious person, I need to prove that I'm a serious consultant. (14:47) But I've abandoned that. (14:49) And I feel like I find the uniqueness of that approach.
(14:54) If they indulge me in engaging them in creativity, the effect the effect is is there fairly quickly. (15:06) I can't explain it to a CEO, I've realized that even leading with that when I'm selling my business is not the way to go. (15:14) They're like, No.
(15:15) But if they can experience it, that's when everything shifts. (15:22) And it's not gratuitous. (15:24) It's not like we're drawing for the sake of time, like every activity we do is intentional, and leads to a result.
(15:33) It's just a different way of getting to a result.
Julian Hayes II
(15:36) You mentioned constructive disruption early earlier on, and I had a couple questions around I guess number one is, why does that even matter?
Jamie Woolf
(15:47) Oh, so much. (15:49) Can we talk for three hours about that? (15:52) Constructive disruption, that was Ed's term to say, we if we don't disrupt the status quo, we won't survive.
(16:01) And that's true for every business. (16:02) If we don't disrupt the status quo, somebody else will disrupt disrupt the status quo, and we lose our competitive edge. (16:10) And so constructive disruption is about asking good questions, adapting to the changes in society, seeing things in new ways.
(16:22) And if we don't have the skills to be agile and adaptive, and if we don't invite who we think of as the troublemakers, then we won't expose ourselves to anything but an echo chamber. (16:39) So we need to as leaders invite dissent, invite debate, invite true, sincere, respectful disagreement so that we get different perspectives. (16:51) And I always ask leaders, if you look around, and everybody's agreeing with you, and you can't remember the last time someone went toe to toe with you, and truly disagreed, then that's a red flag.
(17:03) Now you just have a cheerleading squad, but you don't have a true leadership team.
Julian Hayes II
(17:09) Why do you think some people are so risk averse or so conflict avoidant when it comes to these types of things, even though I think there's a lot of research out there that shows that these things are good. (17:23) These things usually lead to improvements across the board. (17:26) Where do you think that disconnect lies?
Jamie Woolf
(17:30) I think we over index on efficiency and profit. (17:35) And so what we do when we're just looking at how to get from A to B as efficiently as possible, we don't take those necessary circuitous journeys to what can be improved, what can be better, what we need to adapt to. (17:50) And so again, it's how we stay stagnant and then other places, other businesses beat us out.
(17:58) I think that there's a bias against creativity because it's messy, it does take time, and it's uncertain. (18:05) And I think we like familiarity. (18:08) We like mitigating risk, not creating risk.
(18:12) And there is a certain amount of risk that is introduced when we are trying new things.
Julian Hayes II
(18:20) And one of your interviews, as I was learning about you a little more, I saw you talking about something where it was turning market disruptions into opportunities for growth on an interview of yours. (18:31) And you mentioned investing in innovation, and even when it's uncertain. (18:37) And my question is, I'm thinking that that's going to be hard sometimes for someone to stomach, who's risk averse and also seeing, I'm going to invest in this new thing.
(18:50) And there's chaos around right now. (18:53) So how would you recommend getting that buy in and recommending that to leaders too? (19:00) In these uncertain times, this is when you should be as innovative and bold and creative.
Jamie Woolf
(19:06) Yeah. (19:07) Well, a couple of things come to mind. (19:09) One is that it's not about abandoning the efficiency and abandoning that focus on results and profit, but how do we hold that and hold the inefficiency of creativity at the same time?
(19:22) So is it a subset of your team that's going to go off and do some research and development or try some new things or invite people in who are from a different industry to start to open up our mind? (19:37) So it's not abandoning that approach. (19:39) And then the second thing is I often get, well, we're way too busy.
(19:43) We're putting out fires all day long. (19:45) And so then I do a subtraction activity with people. (19:49) Let's look at your calendar together.
(19:51) And you tell me that there's not some meetings that are standing meetings that are a waste of your time or could be shortened. (19:58) So let's take some things off the calendar. (20:01) Now you've freed up some time where you could be more creative.
Julian Hayes II
(20:06) And for you, when you were going about building your company and everything, how did you develop that mentality as well in terms of constantly innovating and having that at the ethos of your company? (20:20) And I guess what I mean by this is a lot of times people say we're innovative at our core, but I'm not sure that's really true. (20:29) A lot of times when I see companies say that, and then I'm looking at how it's playing.
(20:32) So what's the difference between a company that's really innovative at its core compared to one that's just kind of just giving lip service?
Jamie Woolf
(20:41) Yeah. (20:42) Well, there's two questions in there. (20:44) What I did my first year is get terrified a lot, waking up at three in the morning.
(20:49) It's like, can I make this work? (20:52) And so I think there is in the startup world, there is that iterating because you're not, no one starts a business and they go from A to B and it's bingo. (21:02) I mean, that's very, very rare.
(21:04) So by the nature of entrepreneurial business, you are iterating, you're trying things, you're learning, you're talking to people. (21:14) If you're not doing that, there's no way you're going to get off the ground. (21:17) So that's kind of baked into the startup process.
(21:20) And then innovation at its core, there are companies like the one I was a part of for 12 years, Pixar, where it's the behaviors in the room. (21:36) So for example, when Pixar filmmakers are coming up with story ideas, Ed Catmull often said, we are not thinking about box office while we're coming up with the story ideas. (21:51) These are their products.
(21:53) So then they start asking, okay, so let's ask this powerful question. (21:58) What if a rat wanted to make fancy cuisine in Paris? (22:04) That's crazy.
(22:05) That's not a movie that would sell. (22:07) Of course, that's not going to enter into the conversation because audiences, first of all, don't know that they will really love a movie about a rat making cuisine in Paris. (22:18) And it's that imagination that needs to be protected by not talking about profit.
(22:25) And most entrepreneurs have to resist that impulse to think primarily about profit at the beginning, because that will stifle creativity.
Julian Hayes II
(22:36) Yeah, I hear a very powerful question in there. (22:37) And it's, I probably don't even think that I probably don't even think about it or do it unconsciously. (22:43) And that's a what if.
(22:45) I think that's a very powerful question. (22:47) What if dot, dot, dot, you know, and I think about that with health and everything. (22:51) And people say this has to go this way.
(22:54) Well, what if we tried this? (22:55) What if this happened? (22:57) What if that happened?
(22:58) And it sounds like that's a huge thing that you always recommend as well, because you're absolutely correct. (23:06) That if you if a company thinks about what if we did this, and they're just thinking about, they're not allowing any imagination, any wonder to come in there. (23:16) And they're trying to think about the how before they even the what and the why.
(23:19) So it seems like their secrecy is out of order.
Jamie Woolf
(23:22) Absolutely. (23:23) Yeah. (23:24) And it is scary to think what if because you really have to free yourself up to think of something that's truly uncertain, because it's not tested.
(23:34) But it's such a powerful question. (23:36) And I use that question with all different industries. (23:40) And it's, it is the path to getting people excited.
(23:46) It's the path to opening up the imagination. (23:50) It's a path to thinking about creating something that doesn't yet exist. (23:54) And if that's not a creative or competitive edge, I don't know what is.
Julian Hayes II
(23:59) Yeah. (24:00) And speaking on getting a competitive edge, a lot of times, being a more creative, innovative leader is is is one of those things. (24:08) And for the leaders out there who don't fancy themselves as an artist don't fancy themselves as a creative right now, what would you say?
(24:14) Maybe two to three tips that they can do right now to start, you know, having that become more of a part of their identity.
Jamie Woolf
(24:23) I think one thing for busy executives is scrutinizing your calendar, because I think to give executives a break here, they're overwhelmed, they are putting out fires, there is so much pressure on their shoulders. (24:40) And so I have so much compassion for that. (24:43) But is there a place on your calendar where you can create some buffer time to take a walk to think strategically and not reactively?
(24:56) Most of the leaders I do a lot of executive coaching, and I start small, put five minutes on your calendar to just put your feet on the ground, breathe deeply, and think about how you want to show up at the next meeting or what you need to get out of your mind and onto paper so that you're not distracted. (25:17) That has huge effects. (25:20) And so I think one tip is to look at your calendar and find some buffer time for whether it's breathing or thinking big picture or asking what if that's that's a huge takeaway.
(25:37) And I think the second is, if you can discard that I'm a serious person. (25:44) And remember that your cerebral analytical skills will only get you so far that there's a whole other part of your intelligence that you're neglecting by not thinking about your emotions, not thinking about your somatic intelligence. (26:03) And so when you go into a meeting, and you notice that your jaw is clenched, you're probably not going to do your best thinking.
(26:11) So if you can be tuned in to that somatic intelligence and discard that, you know, I have to think my way through everything. (26:23) So let's see. (26:24) Yeah, I think I'll think more about a third so that I don't throw one away just off the top of my head.
(26:30) Give me a minute to think about that.
Julian Hayes II
(26:32) Yeah, we'll come back to that. (26:34) If we have time. (26:35) And the next thing is, we're talking about one of the key things that listeners, leaders also do is listening.
(26:41) And so being a great leader, absolutely requires being a great listener. (26:45) But one thing that I've seen that you stated in your talks is this thing called real listening. (26:50) And so I'm very curious to hear what is real listening?
(26:55) And how can we start to use to use that in our in our daily lives?
Jamie Woolf
(27:00) Yeah, listening is so hard to do well. (27:04) And yet we think it's just, you know, it's just something that we do. (27:08) And we all know how to listen.
(27:10) But when we do listening classes, one of the things that we notice is really hard for people is to not try to fix what people are bringing to you or relate to it so much that you take the spotlight away from them. (27:26) And now you're starting to talk about you, we call that level one listening. (27:30) So it says, Oh, I've been really having trouble sleeping.
(27:33) Oh, me too. (27:34) And I haven't slept for three months. (27:36) And now it's about you.
(27:37) So level one listening, bringing it back to me level two, listening, sinking into deep curiosity about where they are and not relating it back to you taking a beat before you do that. (27:50) And, you know, listening is so much about asking powerful questions. (27:54) So not saying, Oh, have you tried this?
(27:56) Or you should do this? (27:57) Or I've done this, you should try that. (27:59) Especially leaders want to really fix it.
(28:02) But what if we just ask clarifying questions or asked, you know, how is that for you emotionally? (28:10) Or is this something that you've experienced before? (28:12) There's so many questions.
(28:15) And it requires deep presence to find that curiosity. (28:19) It's, it's, it's a discipline that takes a little while to do because I think the art of questioning is a muscle we all need to build. (28:31) But if we can ask really powerful questions, that's a very important part of deep listening.
Julian Hayes II
(28:39) And when we're working with our teams and getting our teams to get the buy in more, get them to be engaged more, keeping the engagement high in the workplace. (28:49) When you're thinking about questions, oftentimes, it seems to me just on a daily interactions with people, if I want them to try something different is to just ask them questions along the way, instead of me just telling them the advice or giving my opinion on what to do is more asking questions to guide them there. (29:10) Have you noticed the same thing in the workplace that there's a difference between leaders who just give an opinion, or maybe share advice of what to do, compared to asking a question, and then that's going to guide you to a different destination?
Jamie Woolf
(29:24) Yeah, yeah, that's so true. (29:26) And that's so hard to do. (29:28) Because as a leader, and even the way we're taught in schools, like we should have all the answers.
(29:34) But if we change our mindset to think the wisdom lies with, with my employee, the wisdom lies with the person I'm coaching, they're the one living that experience. (29:44) And how presumptuous to think that I can be prescriptive and think of something they haven't yet thought of. (29:51) So I always try to remember whether it's my team, and I'm managing who I'm managing, or someone I'm coaching, I want to be really curious about where the wisdom is that they haven't accessed yet, but I'm going to help them access that wisdom that already rests within them.
Julian Hayes II
(30:11) What's been your maybe one to two favorite things about managing your team?
Jamie Woolf
(30:17) Managing is hard. (30:18) I think my favorite thing is I have had the joy of managing teams of people who I love so much fun, and I learn more from them than they learn from me. (30:31) I just, I love the alchemy that I can create in a team to be safe and to be able to joke around to be able to have intimacy to really know each other.
(30:43) I do feel like that's one of my superpowers that I just love to be really curious and understand who people are more than just, you know, what their job is. (30:55) And so I've always been really curious about people. (30:59) And, and I like to bring together a cohesive community.
(31:04) And that requires sharing stories. (31:06) And I never start a meeting with the agenda at hand. (31:10) I always start a meeting with like, you know, where are you at today?
(31:14) What would you do over the weekend? (31:15) That to me is not a waste of time.
Julian Hayes II
(31:18) And on the other end, what's been maybe one or two of your biggest lessons when it when it when it's come to managing teams?
Jamie Woolf
(31:26) I think what's most difficult is if I'm coaching someone whose performance is not what I'm expecting. (31:36) And I'm giving feedback and it's not having traction and the problem persists and I, I want to elevate them, I want to provide the skill building, but it's just not happening. (31:49) And so, you know, the hardest thing is having to put someone on a performance track or even terminate them.
(31:58) That is no fun.
Julian Hayes II
(32:01) And I'm always curious when to hear this answer, or even hear if people have an answer for it. (32:07) And that's about finding our superpower, I think that that that just is makes sense uniquely us. (32:13) You have any suggestions or tips around finding our superpower?
Jamie Woolf
(32:19) Yeah, one thing is I think some people are so averse to bragging or boasting or even saying that's my superpower, especially women have a real hard time claiming and embracing their strengths. (32:33) And so I think it's really important, especially if you're in a leadership position, but we all want to have influence. (32:38) And if you don't embrace your strength, which we all have, and you can't say it out loud, then you're right from the start diminishing that possibility of making a difference in other people's lives.
(32:52) So but a fun activity I often do is I have these superpower cards from it's a company called SY partners, and they're just beautiful, beautifully designed cards, I wish I had one, I would show you but it's, it has different superpowers, like it might have harmonizing, problem solving, decision making, empathizing. (33:13) And then on the back, it there's a description of when these superpowers are most useful. (33:19) And then I have people just pick a card and then go around and share what your superpower is an example of where you've used that superpower.
(33:27) And an example where that superpower is not so useful. (33:31) And so that you maybe need somebody else's superpower who's in the room. (33:36) And, and so it's just a great way to, to get people pretty, I think people can usually, if given permission, can talk about what they're really good at, and what they usually it's what gives them joy.
Julian Hayes II
(33:52) Yeah, this also sounds like a great way to build team chemistry in a much more authentic way. (33:59) Because I'm thinking when, when you're getting these cards, you're going to answer the way some people are going to answer these, more of their actual personality is going to come out, as opposed to just the, the quote, unquote, corporate answer that I think you want to hear.
Jamie Woolf
(34:15) Yes, right. (34:16) Yeah, like recently, I was in a group where a lot of people picked the empathizer. (34:27) And so that's like the analytical and the heart.
(34:30) It's like, that's such a complimentary, that's a collective superpower that you all have on your team.
Julian Hayes II
(34:37) Yeah. (34:37) And I think when you go by that, is that a way to also that you can kind of assemble a team in terms of putting them in the exact ideal roles that's going to best support them and the organization?
Jamie Woolf
(34:50) Yeah. (34:50) And I think knowing what the superpowers are on on a team, so that there's not conflict there tension, when you want to get to the solving the problem, but I want to talk about how people are feeling, well, we need both. (35:05) And so if you start to think of the paradigm of complimentary skills being essential to have the best outcome, then yeah, we need to have all sorts of people, people who are more analytical people who, even people who are more cautious, and more risk taking.
(35:23) That's, that's the alchemy, that diversity of style creates the most productive outcomes.
Julian Hayes II
(35:33) Now, what I'm thinking of, okay, implementing some of these things right here, this seems hard to do at scale when it's a larger organization. (35:40) And so how does like a larger organization go? (35:44) Because I know, because you've worked with some, so how does a larger organization start to infuse more creativity and innovation into their culture?
(35:52) Because as a small business, I feel like it's easier if you if you have, if you have like a small subset of people.
Jamie Woolf
(35:58) Yeah, well, there's micro climates, there's micro cultures, I think that it's easier to change culture, when you're working with your sand, when you're playing in your sandbox. (36:10) So what is the local world that you influence, it might be your team, it might be your department, it's very difficult to create change across an entire organization. (36:23) On the other hand, there are things like coming up with values.
(36:28) So the way that we came up with values at Pixar is we got everyone to share stories about a time that was most quintessentially Pixar, where you felt proud to work there. (36:37) And then through those stories, and we got hundreds of them, we called it down into what values popped out of those stories. (36:45) So then the the key is to not just have those values be static and laminated on a poster and on a wall.
(36:56) It's what are the questions that will prompt inquiry when we're making key decisions to make sure we're operationalizing those values? (37:05) How do we hire with those values in mind? (37:08) How do we onboard people with those values in mind?
(37:12) So we weave it through the entire employee experience.
Julian Hayes II
(37:18) And the next thing here is I'm curious, just what do you enjoy most about your work?
Jamie Woolf
(37:26) Let's see. (37:28) It's definitely when I'm working with people, whether one on one and really connecting, or when I'm really connecting with a team and I see the cylinders lighting up, their brains on fire, and creating that kind of in-person magic. (37:50) It's all about the people for me.
Julian Hayes II
(37:52) What would you like to see organizations do more of as, you know, we're recording this near the end of 2024, and we're going to head into 2025. (38:01) What would you like to see more from organizations in terms of innovation and creativity?
Jamie Woolf
(38:08) I think the thing I've seen crush creativity and innovation more than anything, it's bad bosses. (38:17) And so if we can find ways to hire and promote bosses who elevate people, who build trust, who create a safe place for wild ideas, for creativity. (38:32) If you have a boss who creates a chilling effect in the room, or who has this kind of top down command and control style, or who shuts down novel ideas, you cannot have creativity.
(38:49) They're the people who hold the power. (38:50) And I've seen so much turnover happen as a result of that. (38:54) So I would say, let's start holding people accountable who are not exhibiting effective leadership, who are more in this old school of command and control.
(39:08) And let's start hiring and promoting and elevating people who have people skills and competence.
Julian Hayes II
(39:17) I always wonder with that sometimes, are the people that act like this, were they like this before they got promoted? (39:26) Or does the position make them like that in terms of and what I mean by that is maybe someone comes in with the best intentions. (39:34) And maybe and then over time, they just it's almost like they start to get maybe a little jaded about the role a little frustrated.
(39:41) Maybe they have shareholders or investors that are pressuring them. (39:45) And all of a sudden, they almost start to lose some of that spirit. (39:48) Yeah, that we're talking about.
(39:50) What do you think about that?
Jamie Woolf
(39:52) I'm obsessed with this question. (39:54) And I don't have the answer. (39:56) But I do.
(39:58) I've been exploring research on this. (40:01) And so Dr. Keltner, who's a an academic at UC Berkeley, he wrote this book, actually, I have it right here, called The Power Paradox, and how we gain and lose influence. (40:15) And his hypothesis is that people get elevated because of their people skills.
(40:20) But there is something that shifts when you start having so much power, and you start losing your empathy. (40:29) And he did a fascinating experience experiment where the people who held the most power in the room, ate the last cookie that was available, like that they take for themselves, and they get used to that power. (40:48) And Ed Catmull used to say, the higher up you go, the more distorted the truth, the more power you have, you start to have people laughing at your jokes, and you're brilliant.
(40:58) And so I think it goes to your head, and you start to get more egoed. (41:03) And if you're predisposed to that ego, and maybe you've been ambitious, because you have already been someone with that ego, then you can start to see some narcissism, you can start to see that lack of connection with stepping into people's shoes. (41:23) And then alternatively, sometimes you see brilliant leaders who get to the top of an organization, and they are so empathetic, and so compassionate, and they shadow the people who are in the trenches to understand their business, and they're curious.
(41:38) To me, that's the superpower of leadership.
Julian Hayes II
(41:41) Yeah, I almost think that you have to really be mindful of your environment, like the higher you climb, and the more people start really putting a lot of weight on your titles, and accolades, and all that. (41:56) You really got to be mindful of your circle, to almost essentially keep you humble, and everything. (42:04) Because you do, I've seen this, you get a lot of yes people around, you get a lot of people who treat you differently after a position, or an exit in your business, or something.
(42:15) And I think it's human nature, it's hard to do that. (42:19) I think we're all susceptible to it. (42:21) If we're giving a bunch of power, we're giving a bunch of status.
Jamie Woolf
(42:26) And when you're someone who resists that, when you're a leader who resists that, that is magnificent. (42:31) I mean, people just will walk to the end of the earth to perform well for you.
Julian Hayes II
(42:38) Yeah. (42:39) And I think, like you said, it's a delicate dance. (42:42) Because to do any sort of entrepreneurial venture, or creating something for nothing, or climbing the C-suite, or anything that's out the ordinary, you do need to have a little bit of a delusion, quote unquote, in yourself.
(42:53) You need to have a little ego and pride in yourself, because there's not any physical proof yet that you can accomplish this thing that you're going after. (43:03) But it's just when you get out of that balance. (43:05) So it's a very interesting question that I think about a lot as well.
Jamie Woolf
(43:09) Yeah. (43:10) We'll be obsessed with it together. (43:12) If you come up with any answers, let me know.
Julian Hayes II
(43:14) Will do. (43:16) So as I mentioned earlier, we're getting closer to 2025. (43:19) What has you most excited at the moment about the coming year?
Jamie Woolf
(43:25) Let's see, 2025. (43:28) I'm trying to elevate out of some of my fears about 2025, and think about what I'm most excited about. (43:38) Now that Creativity Partners is really playing in so many sandboxes, so many different (43:46) industries, and having such great results, I'm excited about continuing to play, (43:55) continuing to engage in creativity, to continuing to help people, help leaders who are really (44:06) beleaguered, and overwhelmed, and stressed out, to introduce ways to lessen the load, to (44:16) find their way out of that dark abyss that is keeping people up at night, these unsolvable (44:23) problems, and to use creativity and innovation to help others lift out of that. (44:30) Because I think we are heading into a time of uncertainty.
(44:35) And that's the constant, is that we're all uncertain about what's ahead. (44:42) And whether you're having a day where you wake up and you're totally excited, or a day when you wake up with dread, I think we all need mechanisms to get on the balcony, and look down at the view, and take a deep breath, and do whatever you do, whether it's for me walking in the woods, playing tennis, to find the time to take care of ourselves.
Julian Hayes II
(45:06) Yeah. (45:07) Speaking of taking care of ourselves, and you mentioned walking in the woods, and getting that time in, are there any other useful tools that you do for yourself in terms of, I guess, quote-unquote, having the balance? (45:21) We know that there's no such thing as a perfect balance, but balance for yourself, right, in terms of your work, your family, and your personal health, and all that.
(45:30) What are some of the things that you do to keep yourself on the straight and narrow?
Jamie Woolf
(45:34) Yeah. (45:34) Well, fortunately, I love exercising, and so I love hiking. (45:40) I love tennis.
(45:41) I love yoga. (45:43) I know it's hard for people who don't love it. (45:45) I have a lot of friends, and it just takes so much to engage in it, to stick with it.
(45:50) For me, I've done it for so long, and I know that it makes me feel better. (45:58) In fact, right before I jumped on with you, somebody canceled on me, and I just did yoga. (46:04) I did a half an hour of yoga, and so probably I'm having more fun with you right now because I got to do that.
(46:10) I know the effect of it, and I just think it's easy for me, and I feel lucky about that because if I don't do that, it's not pretty. (46:23) Yeah. (46:24) It's crazy.
Julian Hayes II
(46:25) Yeah. (46:26) The last question here is ... (46:28) How I go about the last question is just whatever's been on top of my mind, and the word legacy has been on top of my mind.
(46:36) I guess the first part is, what does legacy mean to you?
Jamie Woolf
(46:41) Legacy means to me, in my expertise, making the workplace better for my kids. (46:49) I have two kids that have just entered the workforce. (46:53) They're early in career.
(46:55) I don't want them to have to struggle with some of the things that I've had to struggle with in the workplace and that my mom had to struggle with in the workplace. (47:04) I want to bring humanity into work because that's where we spend so much of our time. (47:10) I want my kids to be able to thrive and be fully utilized and to be able to be creative in their careers.
Julian Hayes II
(47:20) The second part of that is, let's say you get to have a billboard message that you can share with the world and especially generations after you. (47:30) What would your message be?
Jamie Woolf
(47:34) Off the top of my head, I'll just say what popped out. (47:36) When I get off this call, I'm going to be like, oh, I should have said this.
Julian Hayes II
(47:39) No, no. (47:40) This is perfect. (47:40) I love top of the head.
Jamie Woolf
(47:41) Top of head is use your voice. (47:47) We've all been so silenced. (47:49) We learn, I think, in the workplace to don't rock the boat.
(47:54) Don't bring up that stupid idea. (47:56) Don't embarrass yourself. (48:00) If you bring up, if you disagree, maybe there'll be retaliation.
(48:04) Find your people to embolden you and use your voice.
Julian Hayes II
(48:10) That's a perfect answer. (48:12) I think it's authentic. (48:14) It actually matches because we started talking about constructive disruption.
(48:19) That's a disruption right there. (48:21) That's also constructive. (48:23) You used the word precise earlier.
(48:26) A lot of times, which is why I would never share this question, what usually happens is whatever the answer people give, it's going to match up with who they are and what we've been talking about, whether they realize it or not. (48:37) I always find that interesting.
Jamie Woolf
(48:39) I've been loving your questions, Julian. (48:41) I've done a lot of interviews. (48:43) You're such a good listener.
(48:45) You're not just throwing out the questions you had on a script. (48:48) You're really following me, finding where the energy is. (48:51) It's just been a great flow of conversation.
Julian Hayes II
(48:54) I truly appreciate that. (48:56) Thank you so much for that. (48:57) Where can listeners keep up with you at?
Jamie Woolf
(49:00) We are at creativity-partners.com. (49:06) I'm on LinkedIn, Jamie Wolf, W-O-O-L-F. (49:12) We have a newsletter that you can subscribe to.
(49:15) It's monthly and on LinkedIn.
Julian Hayes II
(49:20) I will have all that in the show notes in case somebody's out there hiking, running, playing tennis, or any other activity, driving. (49:28) Whatever you're doing right now, I will have it in the show notes for everyone. (49:31) Listeners, until next time, stay awesome, be limitless, and as always, go be the CEO of your health and your life.
(49:35) Peace.
