Through Shifts and Shocks: Lessons from the Front Line of Technology and Change with Former Xero CEO Steve Vamos
In a world marked by rapid change and constant disruption, effective leadership has never been more critical—or more challenging. Former Xero CEO Steve Vamos has spent over 40 years navigating the ever-evolving tech industry, leading organizations through crises, and helping teams thrive amid uncertainty. In a recent conversation, Steve shared invaluable insights on leadership, making tough decisions, and why people often resist the very changes they know they need.
Here are the key takeaways from our discussion.
Watch Our Conversation
1. The Nature of Leadership: Change Is the Constant
Leadership, as Steve defines it, is fundamentally about change. Unlike management, which focuses on maintaining processes and delivering results, leadership demands a willingness to question the status quo and chart new courses.
Steve emphasizes the importance of adaptability, especially in today’s fast-paced environment. Over his career, he has witnessed significant disruptions—from the dot-com crash to the global pandemic—and each presented unique challenges. However, his approach remains consistent:
Clarity and Alignment: Clearly define the organization’s purpose and priorities.
Courage in Decision-Making: Don’t shy away from hard choices, even when they’re unpopular.
Empowering Teams: Recognize that leadership isn’t about being the hero—it’s about enabling others to succeed.
2. Leading Through Crises: Staying Calm and Present
One of the most striking examples of Steve’s leadership came during his tenure as CEO of Xero when the pandemic forced 4,500 employees to transition to remote work. Amid the chaos, Steve focused on staying calm, present, and empathetic.
He prioritized transparency, openly sharing the challenges he faced with his team, and leaned on strategies like yoga, daily walks, and setting boundaries to maintain his own well-being. These actions underscored an essential truth: a leader’s ability to remain grounded directly impacts their team’s resilience.
3. Why People Resist Change
Despite recognizing the need for change, people often resist it. Steve attributes this resistance to three human tendencies:
Fear of the Unknown: Our survival instincts make us wary of unfamiliar situations.
Ego Attachment: We value our past successes and experiences, which can make us reluctant to embrace new ways of thinking.
Conditioning: Many workplace cultures prioritize control, perfection, and hierarchy—values that are counterproductive to innovation.
To overcome these barriers, Steve advocates for fostering a “learn-it-all” mindset rather than a “know-it-all” one. Leaders must also create an environment where mistakes are viewed as opportunities for growth.
4. Making Hard Choices: The Key to Progress
Difficult conversations and tough decisions are unavoidable in leadership. Steve stresses the importance of approaching these situations with:
Context: Understand the bigger picture and involve others in the decision-making process.
Care: Show genuine concern for those affected by the decision.
Courage: Recognize that avoiding hard choices often delays progress and increases frustration.
One memorable example from Steve’s career was his time at Apple when Steve Jobs decided to discontinue the Newton handheld device despite its popularity with developers. Jobs’ unwavering focus on saving the Mac demonstrated the importance of prioritizing long-term goals over short-term comforts.
5. The Role of Well-Being in Leadership
At Xero, Steve championed a holistic approach to employee well-being. This went beyond perks like healthy snacks or gym memberships and focused on creating a work environment where people felt supported, aligned, and proud of their contributions.
Steve also reflected on his personal journey, highlighting how practices like yoga, mindfulness, and healthy eating have helped him stay physically and mentally resilient. For leaders, he says, “Taking care of yourself is not optional—it’s essential for leading others effectively.”
6. Legacy and the Importance of Self-Awareness
For Steve, legacy is about the impact you leave on others—how you help them grow and succeed. He believes that great leaders are deeply self-aware, understanding how their actions and decisions affect those around them.
“Knowing yourself is critical,” he explains. “The more you understand what makes you react the way you do, the better equipped you are to show up as your best self.”
Conclusion: Leadership Lessons for the Future
Steve Vamos’ career offers a powerful blueprint for modern leadership. Whether navigating a crisis, managing change, or building high-performing teams, his approach is rooted in clarity, empathy, and a commitment to continuous growth.
As we move into an era defined by rapid change and increasing complexity, leaders can draw inspiration from Steve’s journey. By staying grounded, prioritizing well-being, and embracing the challenges of change, we can create organizations that not only survive but thrive.
Key Takeaways for Leaders:
Embrace change as a constant.
Foster clarity and alignment within your team.
Approach tough decisions with context, care, and courage.
Prioritize your well-being to lead effectively.
Build a culture that values learning, collaboration, and adaptability.
Stay connected with Steve Vamos:
Website: https://www.stevevamos.com/
Through Shifts and Shocks Book: https://www.amazon.com/Through-Shifts-Shocks-Lessons-Technology/dp/139429350X
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevevamos
Transcript (May Not Be Exact)
Julian Hayes II
(0:03) Steve, thank you so much for joining me. (0:06) As I told you beforehand, I'm talking to the future right now because you're literally on the other side of the world. (0:11) So I really appreciate you being here.
Steve Vamos
(0:14) Thanks, Julian. (0:15) Really, really great to join you.
Julian Hayes II
(0:16) Yeah. (0:17) And so I was just looking in 40 years in technology, you've been literally at the frontline of a lot of different shifts and shocks in this technology sector and industry. (0:32) And one thing that randomly stuck out in my head is like, man, he must have traveled a lot.
(0:37) So now that you're retired, are you still traveling as much? (0:40) Or are you done with traveling?
Steve Vamos
(0:42) Well, actually, look, I'm not sure I'd say I'm retired now that I'm no longer in a full time executive role.
Julian Hayes II
(0:48) That's what I mean.
Steve Vamos
(0:49) Yeah. (0:49) Yeah, I haven't I haven't actually traveled less lately, because my wife and I have taken the last 12 months to go to places we've never been before. (0:57) So I've been to Asia, explored Sri Lanka, and Vietnam, hadn't been there before.
(1:04) I've been to Africa now for the first time in my life and had an amazing visit there to South Africa and also to Zimbabwe. (1:14) And also went to Europe and stayed in a few different places. (1:17) I've been traveling a lot and I live between New Zealand and Australia.
(1:21) So that's a good reason to get on a plane to go back to Australia to see family and also to keep my feet on the ground here in New Zealand.
Julian Hayes II
(1:29) So we got one place left and that's Antarctica. (1:31) Any plans for that?
Steve Vamos
(1:33) It's on the it's in the back of my mind, but I wouldn't say I'm a warm weather guy. (1:39) So I kind of travel to chase the sun. (1:42) So I'll have a think about that one, but I'm not 100% signed up yet.
Julian Hayes II
(1:47) I randomly saw that you can run a marathon in Antarctica, and it hasn't left my mind since I saw that. (1:55) And it's a strong temptation to consider that. (1:59) I'm a little nervous because you got to sign all these waivers and everything.
(2:03) But that also kind of excites me. (2:05) You should do it. (2:09) Probably need to do it sooner than later, probably.
Steve Vamos
(2:14) You've got time.
Julian Hayes II
(2:16) Absolutely. (2:17) So I'm curious to start this off. (2:20) 40 years in one industry, most of the time, a lot of us change and go to different things.
(2:23) So what was it about technology that initially got you involved?
Steve Vamos
(2:27) Well, I was very, very fortunate to, in a sense, observe my dad, who worked for IBM for over 35 years. (2:36) And when I was a young kid going through school, he would talk to me about what he was doing, the work that he was doing. (2:43) And I kind of liked the competitive nature and the changing nature of the industry.
(2:48) So when I was finishing my degree, which was in civil engineering, I kind of had a choice of going down the path into a management trainee type role with one of the oil companies or following my father into the tech industry. (3:03) And at that time, the technology industry was really recruiting heavily out of university colleges and also offered tremendous training and development programs. (3:14) So that's how it all came about.
Julian Hayes II
(3:17) Okay. (3:17) And let's see. (3:20) Has it been everything that you thought it would be when you first got in?
(3:24) Actually, let me rephrase that. (3:27) What's been probably one of the most surprising things about the whole space?
Steve Vamos
(3:32) The pace and the constancy of change. (3:36) And the reason why I say that is that it's accelerated. (3:39) In the early part of my career, I'd always say, if you'd say the first 20 years, each decade sort of seemed to offer you years that were similar.
(3:50) Whereas in the last five to 10 years, every year is a different story. (3:55) And technology advancement and changes just accelerated. (3:59) And so has social change, human change as a result of all of that.
(4:04) So I never expected that things would, I never expected 40 years ago that I would live through as many cycles and work through as many cycles of change as I have.
Julian Hayes II
(4:15) Yeah, I think that's a good reminder for me that, you know, as I was going through your book, some, and just reviewing your background, IBM had a downsize, Apple had a near death, I believe in the 90s. (4:30) There was part of a startup leading to startup, I believe in the 2000.com crash, and then the pandemic, you're the CEO is zero. (4:38) That's a lot of significant disruptions.
(4:42) And so I'm curious, did one help you prepare for the other? (4:46) Or were each of them so unique that you had to learn new skills?
Steve Vamos
(4:51) Well, each experience taught me something. (4:55) And, you know, I talked very much about how the 90% experience when I ran that dot com business that early, it was actually a one of the very first of the digital media companies in the Australian market, there was no ad market for online at that point. (5:12) That experience really was the one where I was able to put the pieces together about what I learned and observed at IBM and Apple, and and correlated the good practices that IBM taught me about management with experiences I was gaining in operating this ridiculously fast changing and unpredictable, you know, internet environment.
(5:34) And then, because I joined IBM with no experience in advertising and media, I ran a startup with no domain expertise, my expertise was in management. (5:45) So I was the, in a sense, the guy who went to the meetings with the least knowledge. (5:51) And there are 100 people in the business at the time, we had a lot of luck going on.
(5:56) So I would just go to meetings, listen, learn, ask questions, and then distill what was wrong or getting in the way of people doing their work, and fix it. (6:04) So I just was a fix it guy, I just made sure that whatever the obstacles were, were they hard conversations, hard choices, I faced into that. (6:13) And it was exhausting for a few years.
(6:16) But after about three years of that, we became the industry leader, the culture of the company was amazing, people loved it. (6:24) And people wanted to join us. (6:27) And, and I was sitting in my office, and I thought, wow, not knowing anything about the domain was a blessing, because now I know what it really takes to help lead change, which is to help other people.
(6:42) It's to get the obstacles out of the way. (6:46) And so that was, in a sense, what set the scene for the next 10-20 years of experiences I had, you know, in various different situations as a non-executive director, and then ultimately as CEO of Xero. (6:59) Because, you know, when the pandemic hit, I was able to stay calm and present, and realize that, you know, the way forward is not about me, it's about how I connect with, care about, enable others.
(7:14) And so that's the way I'd kind of target what was most profound in my journey.
Julian Hayes II
(7:19) Yeah, and I was gonna ask about that, just how do you keep yourself mentally sane, even just with the example of Xero during the pandemic? (7:26) I believe you guys had more than 4,500 people displaced all around the world. (7:33) And nobody knows what's going on in that instance.
(7:35) And they're probably all looking to you in terms of, what are we going to do? (7:38) What's the next move? (7:39) And so there's a pressure from that.
(7:41) And then I'm sure there's other internal pressures you're feeling as well. (7:45) So what's kind of going through your thought process during that time?
Steve Vamos
(7:48) Yeah, it's a great, great point, question to sort of touch on, Julian, because it was hard. (7:56) Like, I physically found it difficult. (7:59) And I shared that with the people in the company, and shared with them what I was struggling with, and also how I was trying to deal with it.
(8:08) So a few things I did, I'll tell you one, but mentally, I started to call Thursday night, Friday eve, so that I could kind of see the end of a week of being constantly on video calls coming to an end. (8:24) So that's kind of a funny little side thing to, you know, just how do I get through this, because all I'm doing here is looking at a screen intensely for hours and hours every day. (8:35) But what I did do was, and fortunately, my wife, she, Cheryl, she got me into yoga a couple of years prior, because we were traveling so much.
(8:48) So, and when you get to my age and stage of life, flexibility is everything in terms of being a movement. (8:54) So I had that yoga practice to sort of lean on. (8:58) But we went for walks at the middle of every day.
(9:00) And we were fortunate in Wellington, New Zealand, to be able to go out and go for walks. (9:05) Some people were really locked down. (9:07) We, you know, we were fortunate to be able to get out every day and go for a walk.
(9:12) And then on the weekends, I'd make sure I gave myself a real break from it all. (9:15) So Saturday, I would not go near anything to do with work. (9:19) And aside from that, you know, just making sure that you eat healthy is another really important thing.
(9:27) But they were just some of the things that went through my head and my life during that really intense couple of years.
Julian Hayes II
(9:34) Yeah, how was the adjustment to doing things to really having to lean into, I imagine, more of a remote-based style of work for a bit? (9:44) Because I guess what I'm seeing now is there's kind of this thing of some people are wanting everyone back to the office, and some people are still sticking with remote work. (9:53) How do you see that whole dynamic?
Steve Vamos
(9:56) It's a great area. (9:58) Look, I'm still not 100% sure how this is going to play out. (10:02) But one thing I would say is that I do not have confidence and belief that in the hybrid, the pure hybrid environment, that organizations that go that way really understand what it means in terms of developing people leadership skills.
(10:20) Because your people leaders are the link. (10:22) They're the link every day between the work life of an individual and the aspirations of the corporation or the organization you work for. (10:31) And I believe that that capability, even in the best of times, is one that is under-invested, and that more people work in environments that, well, I'd say too many people, if not more than, I'd say the majority, work in teams that are not performing to their potential.
(10:51) And their people leader is that team leader. (10:53) So I do think that hybrid work is here to stay. (10:57) I think that the amount that you do remote versus in office will vary depending on roles, depending on organizations, constructs.
(11:07) And I think that there's no clear one answer to this. (11:13) So I think the principle behind it, whatever structure you prefer, the thing to really focus on is are my people leaders connecting my people every day or frequently to the purpose of our organization, the priorities of our organization, and really feeling part of that? (11:34) Because that's going to be the biggest difference.
(11:37) Because at the end of the day, high-performing organizations are clear and aligned. (11:42) And regardless of where your people are, if you're not clear and aligned, you're not going to perform well. (11:47) So hybrid work introduces complexity to getting clear and aligned, and you're going to have to work extra hard to overcome it.
(11:54) I don't have a problem with it because I like flexibility, and I like being able to work from wherever I happen to be, and I do. (12:02) But it's really just more about the discipline, the operational discipline that needs to come with that.
Julian Hayes II
(12:08) Yeah. (12:08) So what initially attracted you to becoming, taking on the mantle of the CEO at Xero?
Steve Vamos
(12:18) Look, I had been a CEO before that role, and I was in a phase of my career where I was a director, company director of publicly listed companies. (12:28) And somehow, I devolved into this, I'd give speeches about getting clear, getting aligned and driving a high-performing organization. (12:36) And then I ended up with getting contacted by CEOs who would ring me and say, Hey, will you coach me or mentor me?
(12:43) And very early on, I realized mentoring and coaching an individual is not going to help much. (12:50) But I said to them, Look, I'm happy to come in and help you with your team, so that I could see how the team functioned, and help coach the CEO in terms of aligning that team. (13:02) And I always believe, you know, people talk about culture and values and behavior is very important.
(13:08) But the best way to get to the right culture, values and behavior is by focusing on the things that matter most, which is where are we going? (13:16) What's most important? (13:18) And who's doing what?
(13:20) And how? (13:21) And when you do that, you evolve your culture, because your culture is everything humans do in the organization, then how they feel. (13:30) So I was coaching CEOs, and I got asked to coach the founder of Xero, Rod Drury, and invited, actually, by Rod to come and work with his team.
(13:41) Because Rod said, Steve, I want Xero to become an even more global, even, even more significant technology company. (13:49) You've had experience with the best. (13:51) Can you help me?
(13:51) And so we worked together for 18 months and came up with a strategy to take the business to the next level. (13:57) And we're working towards that. (14:00) And, you know, after 18 months of working together, I was kind of feeling like, as an outsider, I needed more influence in the operations of the company.
(14:10) And I was going to talk to Rod about maybe giving me a transformation exec role alongside my coaching role. (14:18) And he beat me to the punch because he rang me and said, Hey, Steve, now I understand what the company needs going forward. (14:26) I really believe it's not me that should lead it, because not the areas I'm really passionate about.
(14:32) And he said, I think you should consider doing it. (14:35) And so I entered the process that the board undertook to find the next CEO and was very, very fortunate to get the opportunity to take the reins from Rod, and now to hand them to Secundus and Cassidy. (14:48) So it was an amazing five-year experience.
Julian Hayes II
(14:52) Well, I think as a founder, that just sounds like, that's an interesting thing to hand over, like, it's almost like handing over your baby, proverbially, and everything. (15:02) I've always been curious about, I've heard it, and I didn't understand it fully, a CEO, a founder CEO, and then a CEO on, that's coming in, that's not the founder of that. (15:13) And I've heard that there's, it's two totally different kind of mentalities and approaches, right?
(15:19) Is that because you're not as connected and you can see the bigger picture a little more easy? (15:24) Or is it just more experience? (15:26) What is that kind of the difference, you think?
Steve Vamos
(15:29) Yeah, there's so many dimensions to it. (15:31) First of all, who, what's the nature of the founder? (15:34) So for example, Rod, this Zero is not Rod's first rodeo, as we say.
(15:40) He had successfully built businesses and seen them through to sale. (15:48) So when he built Zero, he didn't build Zero to be him. (15:52) He was able to separate his identity from Zero and was always interested in Zero's development as being separate to him as a person.
(16:01) So Rod's ego was very, very much grounded around that. (16:06) He was very open, open to other views, open to the view that he wasn't doing things as well as he could at times. (16:13) Now he was terrific in that way as any CEO, whether he was a founder or not.
(16:20) So I think that's really important because founder CEOs who struggle most with transition are the ones who can't separate themselves from the business. (16:28) Because in the very beginning of a business's life, the founder is the business and the business is the founder. (16:34) So what point in the journey does that separation happen?
(16:39) And then you've got what stage is the company at? (16:42) So Rod invented Zero's product. (16:45) Rod and those early teams built it.
(16:47) And so I was able to come in to an organisation that found its product market fit and was scaling. (16:54) So the skills required of the CEO, I think Rod, if he really wanted to, could have done it. (17:00) It just wasn't what he was excited about.
(17:02) And that was coaching people, building out an international organisation, changing business processes. (17:10) So making structured decisions about entry to new markets and new products rather than the way the founder would do it, which is to say, let's just build this or let's just enter that market. (17:21) So it's really horses for courses.
(17:24) And I think it's really, sometimes I think we make too much of the founder mentality because I think a lot of CEOs like me still feel ownership of the company and its culture, even though we're not the founder. (17:36) It's not really that point that it's that founder mentality being the ownership mindset. (17:41) It's more, can you see a business through to being bigger, better and more than you are?
(17:49) That's what I think. (17:51) And, and I never went into Zero thinking of Zero as being mine or needing to look like me. (17:59) So that's, that's essential.
(18:02) It's probably more startup to scale up that is the significant thing to look at here. (18:08) And what's the culture and style of leader that you need for that phase in your particular organisation?
Julian Hayes II
(18:13) That's interesting. (18:14) Yeah. (18:15) I can definitely relate to it being part of your identity, because I don't think I'm at the, I'm not remotely close to the separation phase yet.
(18:22) So, cause I do, I do see everything I'm doing as still part of me and that is, yeah. (18:28) So, but that's interesting. (18:29) I always love that answer that question.
(18:31) Cause it's just something I'm curious about. (18:33) Another thing I'm curious about is how did you know when it's time to, to stop?
Steve Vamos
(18:38) Yeah, look, it's been different at different phases of my career. (18:42) So, you know, sometimes I've had, I've made decisions to leave a company or a role for personal reasons. (18:50) You know, for example, there may not, there wasn't necessarily a pathway for me at IBM that I could take without having to leave Australia.
(18:59) And I didn't want to leave Australia with my children at the age they were. (19:04) But look, and then for Xero, it was pretty straightforward. (19:08) You know, at my stage of life, there are other things I want to do other than be a full-time executive.
(19:13) So, I gave myself five years as the, you know, what I want to dedicate to that. (19:19) And so, the board and I were able to work, you know, at a very measured way towards that transition. (19:26) Because I wasn't, you know, I didn't suddenly say I'm gone.
(19:29) I said to them, hey, I will not be doing this post, you know, a particular period of time because, you know, where I am in my life, stage of life. (19:37) In some, I do think there is something too about being in one role too long or not seeing, I do think it's tremendous benefit in fresh views of things. (19:51) Because as human beings, it's really hard to let go of your past success and knowledge.
(19:58) And even if that past success and knowledge relates just to what I've learned in the last three to five years, someone coming in fresh is going to have a different view. (20:07) And so, I do think that there's an element to also wanting to make sure that you stay fresh and learn new things, but also the organization gets the benefit of a change in the person doing the role you're doing.
Julian Hayes II
(20:20) I'm very, I'm always curious about it. (20:22) I think I even wrote about it recently about CEO succession. (20:25) And the reason why I was curious about it is because with health and the technologies, keeping people much more healthier, vibrant, and more people still wanting to work.
(20:36) And I saw a lot of times, there's usually a cutoff age, usually, at certain companies in terms of when it's time for a CEO to stop. (20:44) And I'm wondering, is that going to change in the future?
Steve Vamos
(20:49) Wow. (20:51) I, there's a couple of things at play here, which is, look, I do think you have to judge an individual. (20:59) You can't, I mean, this is, it's like, there are no labels of humans that are, I think, overly helpful in really understanding the individual, right?
(21:11) You've got to get to know people individually and respect their individuality. (21:16) And I believe there are people who are capable at a very, very old age doing very productive things. (21:26) But I also think that there's an issue in the world today, that the leaders of the world today did not grow up in the times they're leading.
(21:37) And they are, in my view, foreign to it, and often ignorant of it. (21:43) And so change, change is the world that we are entering and now leading. (21:50) And we come from a past where change was nowhere near as constant and as, as, as fast.
(21:57) So I do think that there's real value in the transition of the current generation of leaders to younger leaders. (22:06) Really, really do believe that's going to be important for the world. (22:10) Because, you know, there are, I don't want to categorize people, but you can, at the top of the tree right now who don't get it, you know, that, that, you know, fundamental principle, any agenda that's going to be good for the planet is a we agenda, not a me agenda.
Julian Hayes II
(22:28) Absolutely.
Steve Vamos
(22:28) And how do you operate? (22:30) This is, this whole notion of self-centricity versus service orientation is really embedded in people who came from slow changing times, because they didn't experience enough, like the 9MSN, 9MSN, and that experience I shared with you has kept me relevant even at my age today. (22:50) If I hadn't had that experience, I don't think I would have ever become CEO of Xero.
(22:55) And I think I'd be like most of my contemporaries in that probably wouldn't be working nearly as much as I work. (23:02) So, so I do think that don't judge individuals by any label, but at the same time, if you're going to be, make generalizations, transition to youth at this time in our journey as a planet and a society is a very positive thing.
Julian Hayes II
(23:21) And I think that's a great leeway into talking about your book, Through Shifts and Shocks. (23:27) What was the inspiration behind that?
Steve Vamos
(23:30) Just the experience around change and realizing that the good, fantastic school of management I went to at IBM in the 80s was, taught me stuff that I wasn't seeing, I never saw in any other company I went to the same discipline around growing good, strong leaders of people. (23:51) And so really my book is the intersection between leadership, teamwork and change. (23:57) But the central theme is really change because every agenda is a change agenda.
(24:03) If you want your team to perform better, that's a change agenda. (24:06) If you want to see a particular social or economic or environmental program succeed, you are driving a change program. (24:16) And we see too many of these change initiatives that require collaboration and teamwork that are failing because we aren't as good at collaboration and teamwork as we need to be.
(24:26) So my book is really there to try and say, look, from my experience, here are eight must do things. (24:34) You can't do them all really well all the time at once, but these are the things to think about. (24:40) Pick your area or pick a couple of areas where by investing to be better in those areas, like being clearer about where we're heading is one, being more aligned is another.
(24:52) By just focusing on those things, you'll get better teamwork and you'll get more productive outcomes. (24:58) And you also have a more successful chance of your change initiative being successful.
Julian Hayes II
(25:05) And we'll go into those domains and those must do's. (25:09) But I guess I'm going to ask the million dollar question that is definitely not able to probably be completely solved as easily is, if we know that everything needs change, as you mentioned earlier, why is change just so hard? (25:26) Why are we just adverse to changing if we know it's the very thing that we need to get our goals in various categories?
Steve Vamos
(25:34) Really, because we're humans and we are programmed for good reason to fear change till we understand what it means to us. (25:43) Pardon me, just one second, I'm going to grab a glass of water. (25:55) Yeah, so when something unexpected or changing happens to you, you will fear it till you understand it.
(26:03) And that's survival instinct. (26:06) Another area of why this happens is our ego, which is, you know, I attach my past success and experience and knowledge to me and I value it. (26:17) So that's why we're always better talkers than we are listeners, because we want to get our point across, sense of self, more so than hear what other people have to say.
(26:28) And then our conditioning, our conditioning at work, you know, conditioning at work is, here's your job, go do it. (26:36) Don't challenge the hierarchy. (26:39) It's being in control.
(26:41) Don't make mistakes. (26:43) Do you know the answer? (26:44) All those things relate to here and now.
(26:48) And all of those things are fine for things you don't want to change. (26:54) So we have a default way of being in human, being as humans, that is better for sustain than it is for change. (27:06) And so for change, you've really got to have a different open-minded view of things.
(27:11) So instead of worrying about yourself, you need to connect with care and enable others. (27:17) Instead of worrying about making mistakes, in change, you have to appreciate mistakes are learning. (27:23) So there is nothing you are good at today, and I challenge anyone, I'm still waiting for someone to correct me on this.
(27:31) There's nothing you are good at today that you didn't get good at by making mistake after mistake after mistake until you got good at it. (27:38) So change means mistake-making. (27:41) And in terms of the final domain of this, I love how Satya Nadella in his book says, I'll take a learn-it-all over a know-it-all every day of the week.
(27:52) So all of this means that there is not one mindset and way of facing into situations that is right all the time. (28:00) You have to apply the right mindset for change, which is easier, sorry, which is harder from the mindset for sustain and keeping things the way they are. (28:10) So the natural places that, you know, keep things the way they are, we have to think differently and be conscious of how we think and show up when we're there in the face of change.
(28:22) And the gift I've been given by the years of experience I've had is even though I'm far from perfect and I make a lot of mistakes, I'm more conscious about coming into situations and making sure that I'm facing into them with the right mindset. (28:37) And that's what I've been taught by going through all those different, difficult experiences over the years.
Julian Hayes II
(28:46) And it also seems that a lot of times I think of this like a little boy that sometimes pain is our, pain is going to be our best teacher. (28:51) Pain is going to usually lead us to actually making change. (28:54) And I say that because like I put my hand on the stove, I'm not going to do it again.
(28:58) A lot of times going through those experiences with the companies of, you know, with the Apple, the IBM, the startup, that's a lot of pain and something that literally had to jolt you and, you know, shock you. (29:09) And then you had to shift and pivot from that situation. (29:12) And so we had two domains here and that's being and doing.
(29:18) And I guess let's, we'll quickly go through the domains and the must do action. (29:23) So being and doing is, what do you mean by being and doing?
Steve Vamos
(29:26) Well, being really relates to what I said before, which is that's about you and how you show up. (29:32) So that's about the mindset you bring. (29:35) Are you bringing the right mindset?
(29:36) Is this situation one about, you know, for example, processes that we've refined, financial accounting, safety, where we want people to do very, very clearly controlled things, not make mistakes and know what they're doing? (29:52) Or is this a situation where I've got to show up with a different mindset because it's changing? (29:57) And then the second element of the three human elements I touched on is, are you conscious?
(30:03) Are you self-aware? (30:04) Because you might have the right mindset in a situation, but is that because you're aware or is that just you just happen to show up that way? (30:12) So this is really reflecting something I've learned in more recent years about the fact that we operate from the unconscious.
(30:25) Pardon me, I'm really struggling here. (30:27) We operate here from, you know, the unconscious or subconscious, you know, it's a way of being human. (30:36) There's so much to absorb that a lot of what you do ends up being almost on automatic.
(30:41) So the second piece is really something I've learned recently, relatively recently, which is this is about being mindful. (30:50) This is about being able to pause when you're under pressure. (30:53) It's about being able to apply the right response to a situation that might be getting your blood pressure up.
(31:00) So consciousness, self-awareness, and your self-awareness of how you impact on others is the second. (31:07) And the third one is obvious, which is you've got to care about people. (31:11) But I always say if you want people to think you care, you have to care.
(31:18) And that is more, you know, profound than it seems because the reality is if you're going to change situations or you're wanting to improve your team or your organisation's performance, you really, if you don't care about your people, you've got a hard road ahead. (31:35) Even if you make those changes in the short term, longer term, they won't stick or they won't, the organisation, the success you see may not be sustained. (31:44) So there's the three elements of being that I think are really important.
(31:51) Mindset, self-awareness, care for others.
Julian Hayes II
(31:55) Yeah, when we were talking about the eight must-do actions, is there one that is typically, I would say, one that someone usually has to start with and focus on?
Steve Vamos
(32:09) You know, it's a really good question. (32:11) The way I look at it is no, no. (32:17) What I encourage people is read the eight and work out which is the one where you see the gap and do that with your team members because other people, each person will have a different perspective and then identify one action to improve that one area.
(32:32) But let me give you a few examples. (32:33) If we go from being to doing, in the doing domain, it's about are we clear about our purpose and priorities? (32:41) Now, I think we've all been in organisations or teams where that wasn't clear and it frustrated us.
(32:47) So that's always a good place to start because the being and the doing domain, so the being domain is a lot about your leader. (32:56) The doing domain is one where all of us can really contribute and call out objectively what could be wrong. (33:05) See, saying to your boss, you never apply the right mindset or you don't care about people is pretty tough, right?
(33:15) It's pretty tough thing to do. (33:17) But saying to your boss, we're not clear about our priorities or we haven't aligned our resources with our priorities is, or we're not talking about how we're performing, you know, enough. (33:29) We've got to review our performance.
(33:31) It's a lot easier to get into the doing. (33:33) So I think that where you've got a team leader who may not be as open-minded, focus on the doing, because that will get you there. (33:42) See, you can have good performance in teams, even where the team leader may not be perfect on those being domains, because none of us are.
(33:52) So I reckon start with clarity. (33:53) Are we clear about our purpose and priorities here? (33:55) Because if we're not, then everything downstream of that is going to be challenged.
Julian Hayes II
(34:00) And one that stuck out to me was making hard choices. (34:04) And I feel like that's a hard thing to do. (34:08) And I'm sure taking back to, as you guys were really expanding during Xero, some of the hard choices that you had to do.
(34:17) What's kind of like your thought process when it comes to making very difficult decisions and sometimes having tough conversations?
Steve Vamos
(34:24) Yeah. (34:24) Well, the challenge with difficult conversations and hard choices generally comes back to human fear. (34:32) You know, fear of making a mistake, fear of upsetting and hurting someone's feelings, you know, fear of looking stupid.
(34:40) So that is at the root of why we avoid those conversations. (34:46) And sometimes, rather than make the right choices, tough choices, we do too many things and don't give any of them a real chance of being as successful as we would like. (34:58) So the best way to deal with these things, I think, is really to make sure that the context is clear.
(35:06) So ask a lot of questions before you dive into either making a choice or having that conversation. (35:13) Make sure you really do understand what other people are seeing and thinking. (35:18) Because it's amazing how often you'll change your view based on the benefit of other people's experience and also their views.
(35:26) Then you've got to realize that the next step is caring about those who are going to be impacted. (35:32) So again, you can couch that conversation. (35:35) So if you're having a difficult conversation about someone's performance, you know, if you don't care about them or you don't care whether they succeed or not, that's, that's going to show through.
(35:48) So you've got to genuinely care and realize we put this person in that position too. (35:53) We are accountable. (35:54) And so I always say to people leaders, step back and remember, you are, it's not you versus the person.
(36:00) Sometimes we get ourselves in that situation and we should avoid it. (36:03) It's what the organization needs. (36:06) It's what the person is experiencing and how they're contributing.
(36:10) And so don't say, I need you to do this, or I asked you to do this. (36:14) I told you this was your job. (36:16) It's not I, I.
(36:17) It's we, the company. (36:19) This is what we in the team need from someone doing your role at the moment. (36:23) This is how we see your performance.
(36:25) And this is where we need to either see things improve, change, or have a serious conversation about whether this is the right relationship, the right place for you. (36:35) And then the third element is just have the courage to do it. (36:38) Because each time you do it, it never becomes easy.
(36:41) But it becomes easier because you learn that the benefits of doing, having a hard, making a hard choice, the benefits of having a difficult conversation are pretty close to immediate. (36:54) And, but they're not always, they don't always leave people happy. (36:59) And, you know, you've got to be willing to accept that you're not always going to be able to make people happy.
(37:03) That's the reality of being a leader of people. (37:07) So context, questions, care about the people, and courage. (37:11) Just do it.
(37:12) And each time you do it, it gets a little bit easier.
Julian Hayes II
(37:15) And speaking of people management, one thing that you, we talked about before even starting it, and even you mentioned it in the book, is the wellbeing initiative that you all implemented. (37:25) And, and I'm curious, because this is one thing I have seen with maybe younger leaders have been more receptive to the idea of a little more extensive wellbeing in the workplace that extends beyond just eat healthy, take some steps, but actually doing some sort of, you know, deeper initiative. (37:45) Whereas maybe leaders that are a little more seasoned, come from a different time, as you put it, are not as receptive to that.
(37:52) And so what was the thing that made you be open to going into this further? (37:59) Because you even hired someone for this role?
Steve Vamos
(38:02) Yeah, look, I, I've been on a journey too. (38:07) And I wouldn't necessarily want to say to the world that I was as open-minded as I might want to believe. (38:16) So it took me time.
(38:18) But what really resonated for me, and where I really got to the point of really embracing the wellbeing initiatives at Xero, was that, yes, we did talk about the things that as a company, we could provide our people that would help them with their wellbeing. (38:37) And we also did do a lot to educate our people and, and really make it clear to our people that you need to take responsibility for your wellbeing as well. (38:48) It's not, we, what we provide is one thing, but there are things you can do, and things you can do to approach the difficulties and the challenges we face, or you face in your life, to, to look after yourself.
(39:01) But what really I appreciated most was when the team came back and said, It's also about making sure that people have clarity in the work they're doing. (39:10) They feel supported and aligned, and they go home from work feeling positive about what they've accomplished. (39:18) And so when you look at wellbeing in a holistic sense, then it really resonated for me, because that's really, you know, the way I felt about it was, whether I, my work-life balance was not about hours on the job, it was how I felt going home in the evening.
(39:34) Now, did I feel wrung out and, and, you know, sort of drained? (39:39) Or did I feel positive about what I'd accomplished in the day and who I was working with and the environment I was working in? (39:46) So the fact that we even, at any stage, doubted the importance of the focus on wellbeing at, in the workplace is kind of crazy.
(39:59) Because at the end of the day, people are what makes organizations real, and what make, makes organizations perform. (40:11) Why would you struggle to understand that looking after those people is good for the business? (40:17) And in a way, that, that in itself just shows you the journey we've been on over the last 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years, and are still on today.
(40:27) Still today, too many workplaces do not live and operate with the clear belief and conviction that humans matter and are at the center of their success. (40:39) It's really quite remarkable, even today, that people have workplace experiences that put them in a situation where they have a poor manager, lack of clarity, not supported. (40:54) That's, it's just unacceptable.
(40:57) And in a way, that's my motivation for doing what I'm doing now, which is people deserve to go to work, work for a good manager, and feel good when they go home each evening.
Julian Hayes II
(41:09) And speaking of that, what's the thing you enjoy about this current phase of your life and work now?
Steve Vamos
(41:16) I like the fact that my calendar isn't full, not from 8 o'clock to 6 o'clock with meetings. (41:22) Definitely enjoy, you know, just being able to work at a pace. (41:27) I'm enjoying having the opportunity to talk to you and people like you about things I'm passionate about.
(41:33) And I even enjoy, I never ever in my life thought I would be, you know, write a book. (41:39) I didn't set out to be an author and write a book. (41:43) It was more a feeling of responsibility I had from that 9 MSN experience.
(41:48) So, but having done it now, I really enjoy writing. (41:52) And that was something I didn't, didn't think I would stumble into. (41:56) So having the opportunity to share ideas with others, and really, if you say what, in one word, what are you going to be in the future?
(42:04) I hope it's some form of teacher.
Julian Hayes II
(42:07) Yeah. (42:07) And so with, with, I think you, I believe you mentioned in the book, interactions like Bill Gates, James Packer, Steve Jobs. (42:14) What's a commonality that you've noticed in all of those types of leaders?
Steve Vamos
(42:20) There's not, it's interesting, commonality, they, well, they're all capable of leading change. (42:27) So they were leaders. (42:29) And leadership, by the way, is change.
(42:32) I mean, I don't like it when we sometimes might talk management down, because management is a really important capability. (42:41) And to my mind, management is doing what you intend to do and doing it well. (42:46) Leadership is change, you know, looking at why are we doing it this way?
(42:49) What can we do to change it? (42:51) And how are we going to do that? (42:52) So you need both.
(42:54) And, and those, all those people were leaders in the context of leading change and very significant change. (43:02) But they were all different in terms of where their emphasis was. (43:06) One thing I would say about the Bill Gates Microsoft was they were incredibly and still are incredibly good at executing on large scale, which means they're a very clear and aligned organization.
(43:20) And that, and I know from my experience with the company that they do a very good job of reviewing performance and calling performance out for what it really is. (43:30) You know, if it's good, it's good. (43:31) If it's bad, it's bad.
(43:33) So a lot to the Bill Gates Microsoft story that aligns very much with those must-dos that I talk about in the book. (43:42) Steve Jobs was an incredible example of clarity and alignment, you know, in that, the way he went about it, it was facing into those tough decisions. (43:55) So one decision he made that I'll never forget was the decision to cancel a product called the Newton, was a handheld, early-stage handheld device.
(44:05) We had 2,000 developers around the world developing software for that platform. (44:11) And Steve stopped it, killed it. (44:14) And I sent him an email, just a short email saying, Are you really sure about this?
(44:18) 2,000 developers, it's going to cause a lot of pain. (44:22) And he just came back with a one-line email saying, We must save the Mac. (44:26) Because his focus was the core of the company at that time had to be solidified.
(44:33) And he did just that. (44:34) So what they have in common is, is really that ability to create clarity, drive alignment, but also to face into difficult choices and hard conversations.
Julian Hayes II
(44:45) And if any up-and-coming leader, young leader comes up to you, and saying, How can I maybe thrive in this, this modern business area? (44:55) Well, what piece of advice would you give them?
Steve Vamos
(44:58) I really, you know what, in this case, I would say, learn more about yourself. (45:04) You know, you're a human. (45:05) And we are not simple things.
(45:09) The more you know yourself, the more you understand what makes you feel the way you do, react the way you do, is going to be really helpful when you're put in situations of unpredictability and change. (45:21) There's a wonderful book from a woman called Nicole LePera called Do the Work. (45:27) And it's really about the fact that we all grow up facing situations that have an impact on us.
(45:34) You know, they call it, you know, trauma or small-t trauma. (45:37) It's just those incidents that, you know, it might happen to us that stop us thinking openly or make us react unnecessarily, sensitively to certain things. (45:50) And really knowing yourself and identifying what those things are and how you will show up perhaps in a way that isn't your best version of you.
(46:00) I think that's really powerful. (46:02) And I do also think this whole area of mindfulness, being able to slow yourself down in moments of difficulty, they're all really, really powerful things. (46:17) So being self-aware.
(46:19) And, you know, to really what I know a lot of your focus is, this whole notion of being, looking after yourself and your well-being, you know, eating well, exercising, all those things. (46:30) So look after yourself, I think is the net of it. (46:33) And looking after yourself means you need to know yourself.
Julian Hayes II
(46:36) Yeah. (46:36) Speaking of looking after yourself, and a lot of times leaders do kind of drop the ball on that, or they have to learn a painful lesson to do that. (46:43) I'm curious now, how do you maintain kind of your well-being and meshing it with, with personal life and work and all those good things?
Steve Vamos
(46:53) Yeah, well, it's, I've got much fewer excuses now, because I've got more of my time in my own hands. (47:00) So, but look, I think flexibility is really important. (47:04) So doing yoga, try and do that every second day of the week, if I can.
(47:09) Going for walks, pretty, pretty disciplined, about 10,000 steps a day to keep, keep moving. (47:16) Enjoy hanging out with grandchildren and friends and family. (47:20) I think, you know, being, being around young people is a fantastic, a fantastic thing to do.
(47:27) I love that. (47:28) My grandkids now are at an age where they're starting to tell me what I need to do differently and think differently. (47:34) So that's teaching me the language of the times, which is, is also interesting.
(47:41) But you know, I'm very fortunate to live where I do here in New Zealand and to get the opportunity to travel and enjoy that. (47:48) So I think a lot of common sense, certainly. (47:51) I've certainly learned that what you put in your mouth creates what you experience in your body.
(47:58) And so I'm very, very careful now with the food that I eat, trying to limit the sugar. (48:02) I love sugar stuff, but trying to limit that and keep alcohol to really limited times when you're maybe with friends rather than drinking on your own. (48:14) So it's a whole, whole range of things now that certainly when you get to my age, you appreciate more than when you're younger and more resilient physically than you are at my stage.
Julian Hayes II
(48:26) Absolutely. (48:27) And a side question here is, you know, say for instance, a guy like me, New Zealand's very far away. (48:34) What's, what's, what's one of your selling points to get me on an airplane and sell me New Zealand to get there?
Steve Vamos
(48:43) It's a beautiful country. (48:45) There is everything from mountains to lakes to beaches. (48:50) The people are really lovely.
(48:53) I mean, New Zealand people, New Zealanders care. (48:56) When you go to a restaurant, a hotel, a shop, everyone cares about your experience. (49:03) And that's, that's special.
(49:06) The food, the produce is amazing. (49:10) The lodges, the hotels, as I said, the hospitality industry in this country is fantastic. (49:17) And there's so much variety.
(49:18) I mean, Queenstown on the South Island is, is stunning. (49:22) And you can go all the way up to the North, the Northland and the beaches up there. (49:26) And that's beautiful and warm as well.
(49:28) So I can't think of a country or a place I've been that has more to offer than New Zealand.
Julian Hayes II
(49:36) And one of the last few questions here is, what does Legacy mean to you?
Steve Vamos
(49:44) There's actually a really good book called Legacy. (49:47) It's about the New Zealand rugby team, the All Blacks, and about their philosophy. (49:54) And it parallels that with really good, what I call U.S. corporate management disciplines and philosophy. (50:04) So highly recommend that. (50:06) Look, I think Legacy is ultimately how people feel, in whatever form it took, you helped them in their journey and development. (50:20) It's what people will say about you when you're not around, about the difference you made to them.
Julian Hayes II
(50:29) And the last question here is, pretend you have a bottle of wine, or you're sharing a great dinner, or you're even just sharing a nice cup of tea, looking out at the beautiful landscape. (50:41) And what 3 people, and they can be dead or alive, would you invite to join you for a conversation? (50:48) It could be anyone throughout history, like I said, dead or alive, but it has to exclude friends and family.
Steve Vamos
(50:55) Wow, that's a that's a tricky one. (50:57) Look, I'm a 70s rock fanatic. (51:00) So it'd be one of my favorite rock, probably be Mick Jagger.
(51:06) And then sport wise, I'm a mad New York Jet fan. (51:11) So that would probably be Joe Namath. (51:15) And then in terms of someone from history, I, you know, I'd be fascinated to have dinner with Cicero.
(51:23) Okay, from Loam, you know, 2000 years ago, the politician, the lawyer, I would be fascinated to really be fascinated to get his reaction to what the world is like today. (51:36) But someone like that would be amazing. (51:38) And probably on that stream of thought, my first two picks were probably not the best two, I could probably do better.
Julian Hayes II
(51:45) No, no, I like those. (51:46) And the reason why I like to keep the question just kind of a secret is because I think it's interesting. (51:51) A lot of times, I it, the people you name sometimes comes out into your philosophy.
(51:57) And each of those guys are have made some change, organizational change. (52:03) Mick Jagger has been performing for decades. (52:06) So you have to be adaptable at that time.
(52:09) So I hear a lot of the principles that you shared in the book, Joe Namath, definitely left. (52:13) Jets haven't won since.
Steve Vamos
(52:17) So it's getting worse. (52:18) It's getting worse.
Julian Hayes II
(52:19) It's not getting so he was doing something. (52:22) And then Cicero, like I said, he had multiple disciplines and everything. (52:25) And so that's embracing change.
(52:26) Each of those guys were a leader. (52:27) So I think it's a reflective of, of the book, your philosophy, and then kind of your career and everything of how you have adapted to the times as well. (52:36) So it all matches up.
Steve Vamos
(52:40) Yeah, well, um, yeah, they're, they're all they're all certainly accomplished people. (52:45) That's for sure.
Julian Hayes II
(52:47) You have a favorite Rolling Stones song?
Steve Vamos
(52:50) Probably, it's only rock and roll, but I like it.
Julian Hayes II
(52:53) Okay. (52:55) And so where can listeners keep up with you at? (52:58) Or to get the book and everything?
Steve Vamos
(53:00) Well, they can reach me on LinkedIn. (53:02) And also got a website, stevevamos.com. (53:06) So my name is Steve Vamos, all just one word, dot com.
(53:11) And there's that we'll be posting more and more information and tools and support over the coming coming weeks and months. (53:20) So it's just gone up and it's supporting the book launch. (53:24) And you'll be using that to stay connected with people who want to be connected to me.
Julian Hayes II
(53:30) Great to hear. (53:30) And Steve, thank you so much for this conversation. (53:32) I really enjoy the stories, the insights and everything that you shared during this conversation.
(53:38) So I'm really grateful for your time.
Steve Vamos
(53:40) Hey, Julian, thank you. (53:42) And I appreciate the opportunity and also want to thank you for the work that you do. (53:46) Because the more people we have out there, who really are talking about how we can make workplaces work environments better.
(53:53) You know, the world will benefit a lot from that. (53:56) So thanks for what you're doing. (53:57) I appreciate it.
Julian Hayes II
(53:58) Well, thank you. (53:59) And listeners out there stay awesome, be limitless. (54:01) And as always, go be the CEO of your health and your life.
(54:04) Peace.
