Why Success Isn’t What You Think: Leadership, Integrity, and Winning in Business With Dave Durand

Success is often portrayed as a mix of wealth, status, and influence. However, according to Dave Durand—a 9-figure founder, CEO, and leadership expert—true success is entirely different. In a world where shortcuts, quick wins, and surface-level achievements dominate the conversation, Durand offers a deeper, more sustainable path to success—one built on discipline, integrity, and resilience.

In my conversation with Durand, we explored why most people fail in business and leadership, the four cardinal virtues of success, and how to win in business without losing your soul. Here’s what I learned.

Watch The Episode With Dave Durand

The Hard Truth About Success (That No One Talks About)

Durand believes most people fail not because they lack ability but because they don’t embrace the fundamentals. Instead, they chase complex strategies, flashy new trends, or shortcuts that never truly deliver.

"Most people don’t fail because they’re incapable," Durand explains. "They fail because they don’t embrace the mundane and stick with the fundamentals."

Success isn’t glamorous—it’s a product of consistent, disciplined effort over time. Whether in business, leadership, or personal growth, the key is to master the basics and execute them relentlessly.

Overcomplicating Success: Why We Do It and How to Stop

One of the biggest reasons people struggle in business and life is overcomplication. Many individuals make things more complicated than they need to be, often without realizing it.

According to Durand, people do this for three main reasons:

1. Ignorance – They don’t know the proper steps, so they make things more complex than necessary.

2. Pride – They want to seem intelligent or sophisticated, so they create unnecessary layers of complexity.

3. Avoidance—They use busy work and unnecessary tasks to avoid difficult but necessary actions, such as making sales calls or having tough conversations.

The key to overcoming this? Simplify. Prioritize the actions that truly move the needle and commit to consistent execution.

The Four Cardinal Virtues of Leadership

Durand outlines four essential virtues that separate great leaders from mediocre ones:

1. Prudence – The ability to make wise decisions based on reality, not emotion or wishful thinking.

2. Justice – Fairness and integrity in dealing with others. A good leader treats people with respect and accountability.

3. Fortitude – The courage to push through challenges and remain resilient when things get tough.

4. Temperance – Self-discipline and restraint, ensuring that success is sustainable and not driven by ego.

Even the most talented business leaders can crumble under pressure without these virtues. But those who master these traits become unstoppable.

The Rise of the Antihero in Business—and Why It’s a Problem

Today’s media glorifies antiheroes—flawed, often corrupt characters who break the rules and still come out on top. Think of TV shows like Yellowstone or Succession, where characters succeed through manipulation rather than integrity.

Durand warns that this mindset affects business and leadership, creating a culture where people prioritize power over principles.

"You don’t just lead a business—you lead people. And people follow principles, not just profits," Durand says.

While some leaders find short-term success by cutting ethical corners, true, long-lasting success comes from doing what’s right—even when it’s hard.

How to Win Without Losing Your Soul

Many entrepreneurs and executives chase success so aggressively that they sacrifice their integrity, relationships, and well-being. Durand has seen this firsthand and believes that true success must be integrated with personal values and purpose.

Here are three key takeaways on how to achieve this balance:

1. Define What Success Means to You

Success isn’t just about money or status. It’s about living with purpose and making an impact. Get clear on what matters most to you—professionally and personally—and let that guide your decisions.

2. Build Resilience Through Hardships

Durand has faced major life challenges, including financial ruin, business betrayal, and personal tragedy. He emphasizes the importance of resilience and surrounding yourself with strong, supportive people.

"Build good friendships in good times so they’ll be there for you in bad times,"

3. Focus on the Long Game

While short-term wins are tempting, true success comes from playing the long game. This means making ethical choices, prioritizing relationships, and staying committed to principles over profits.

Final Thoughts: The Ultimate Legacy

At the end of our conversation, I asked Dave Durand what message he would leave for his family if he could share only one.

His response was simple: "Do everything for Jesus and go to heaven. That is the only reason we are here."

While everyone has different spiritual beliefs, the takeaway is universal: Define your purpose, stay true to your values, and build a legacy that matters.

Connect With Dave Durand

YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DurandOnDemand⁠

Book: Leading Giants: A Leader's Guide to Maximum Influence — ⁠https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Giants-Leaders-Maximum-Influence/dp/1637746334/

Transcript of Conversation with Dave Durand

Julian Hayes II

(0:03) Dave, thank you so much for joining me today. (0:05) I'm really excited about this. (0:06) I was going through your book and as we talked about beforehand, typically with a leadership book, I can skip a lot and just cause it's a lot of things that I've heard, but yours, you make me stop a lot.

(0:16) And I felt there was a philosophical nature to it. (0:18) And then there was just a bunch of other elements that was very unique. (0:21) But even before talking about the book, I'm curious what got you into martial arts?

(0:25) You're a black belt as well.

Dave Durand

(0:28) Yeah, and I, hey, truth be told, I'm a 55 year old black belt. (0:31) And if you watched Mike Tyson this weekend, he's only three years older than me. (0:35) We know what happens with age.

(0:36) So I just, full disclosure there, my day has come and went there. (0:40) But yeah, I loved martial arts since I was young. (0:43) And the reason I loved it is because it just, it was filled with discipline and respect.

(0:49) And even today, you see people getting all smack talky before their fights, but by and large, it's really filled with respect and discipline. (0:58) And what I loved about it too is kind of fascinating, Julian, when I fought, I fought very non-emotionally. (1:05) I was very clinical when I fought.

(1:08) I just was in front of my opponent and I knew I, now there were times that you energize emotionally. (1:16) So I don't wanna say that I was like Dr. Spock, but for the most part, I would just sit there and look and dissect what was happening and problem solve, dissect, problem solve, dissect, problem solve, dissect and get through things. (1:28) And that metaphor for what it's been like to be in business leadership and even as a parent has been pretty good.

Julian Hayes II

(1:34) And so what is it just about business and leadership in general that you love? (1:40) Because I can just see it oozing out and I consumed a lot of your videos and some of your podcasts and I can just see that love for it and it's been 35 years now, probably a few more.

Dave Durand

(1:50) Yeah, 35, that's amazing. (1:52) Yeah, 35 years or so. (1:54) And the thing about it for me that I love is that it's hard.

(1:58) That's what I like about it, it's difficult. (2:02) What people really kind of fail to recognize is that most difficult things in the world, most people can actually do. (2:09) Now, that's an overstatement.

(2:11) There are certain difficult things in the world that only a few people are cut out for. (2:14) But I'll give you an example of this. (2:18) If there's a company where a person needs to get a certain number of appointments in order to get a certain number of sales, in order to earn a certain amount of income, the selling in most companies is not as difficult as the prospecting and the appointment getting.

(2:36) Okay, once you're in front of the customer, if you have a really good product and you've repeated yourself or times on it or over and you know the objections, you're gonna get there. (2:43) Even if your closing percentage is a little bit lower than other people, if you're in front of a lot of people, you're gonna do really well. (2:49) So if you have the ability to get one appointment, then you have the ability to perform at the same level as everyone else, as long as you work on your fortitude and you work on your discipline.

(3:03) And so I'll give you an example, this is a more practical example of this. (3:08) If I were to say to a group of 50 people, come up to the front of the stage and there's 500 pounds up here, I want you to lift it. (3:16) There might be one person who could and maybe another who if they worked out for a couple of years would be able to do it.

(3:21) But by and large, 48 people, no matter how hard they work or how goodwilled they are, will not be able to do it. (3:28) Most things in life in business aren't quite like that. (3:32) Even though many are, there are certain things where you have to be a certain level of academic in order to accomplish it or whatever or artistically you have to be there.

(3:39) But by and large, Bob and Mary Lou going to work on a daily basis would be able to get things done this way. (3:48) If I were to say to the same 50 people, I want you to come up to the stage and lift 20 pounds 10 times, pretty much everyone could do it. (3:57) Now there might be some people who'd be like 20, I could lift 120 times.

(4:00) There would be some people who'd be like, listen, I could do 20, but I'm gonna have to take a break in between and I'm gonna be really sore for two days, but let me work out for a while, I'll do it consistently. (4:09) Most things are that way. (4:11) And when a person goes through the training that they go through in martial arts or in leadership, they start to be able to separate the fact that here's a person who does well because they have exceptional physical capabilities, but here's somebody who defeated them because they have mental abilities that are well beyond that and they just embrace the mundane.

(4:31) I always tell people in my companies, I say, listen, there's two things I want you to do right now. (4:34) I'm gonna bore you to success by repeating the basics and I want you to embrace the mundane. (4:41) Most people try to excite people with new things all the time, just because they're flashy, even though they don't work.

(4:46) And they're always trying to make something creative and new. (4:49) I will tell you, if you embrace the mundane and you're willing to let me bore you to success, you're gonna be on top of the world and you'll never be bored.

Julian Hayes II

(4:56) What do you think it is about people? (4:58) Because I've noticed that still in myself sometimes that we have a tendency to make things more complex than is needed. (5:04) Just like you said, a lot of the basics is all you need in business and health and relationships and a lot of things, but we tend to overcomplicate things.

(5:12) Is that a human nature thing or is that something else?

Dave Durand

(5:15) It is, it is a human nature thing. (5:16) Now, complexity, because this is one of the things that I help people with a lot. (5:21) When people make things complex, they do it for a few different reasons.

(5:25) There are some innocent ones. (5:28) Some of the innocent reasons are they just have ignorance of what's going on. (5:31) So they don't really know how to grapple with it.

(5:33) For example, if you were to say to somebody, start a company, that's actually relatively easy to do. (5:38) There are three or four steps you need to do to generally start the company. (5:41) Then functioning in it and making it work are totally different, but starting a company is pretty easy.

(5:45) But there are some people that are overwhelmed just with the idea of the very basics, like incorporating and everything else, that when you talk to them about it and they explain what they need to do, like, I mean, I have MBA, Harvard MBAs that I've started so many different companies and I've sold them for hundreds of millions. (6:02) They'll sit in front of me and having never done any of that and we'll talk about starting a company and I have no idea what they said. (6:08) I'm like, I literally don't know what you just said to me.

(6:11) I'm just gonna do it this way, boom. (6:13) But so that's one reason is they don't know. (6:17) The other reason is because of pride.

(6:19) This is a big reason people do this. (6:22) Now their pride actually is manifest in more than one way. (6:25) One reason that they make things complex is because they think to themselves, you know what you see, Julian, you see this in trainers all the time.

(6:32) Somebody comes to a training class and instead of the trainer or the educator going, here's how simple it is, it's one, two, three. (6:37) They want that training. (6:38) Their mission isn't to have the people who are being trained be really effective in what they do.

(6:42) Ironically, even people who own companies do this to their demise because their ego is so big. (6:48) What they want, their whole mission is for everybody in that room to think they're super smart. (6:53) So therefore, if they make things sound really complex and the vast majority of people go, I could never do that, but you're amazing.

(6:59) They have this some sort of like victory in their head even though every one of their people leaves inept and they can't build their business. (7:06) But here's another reason people do it because we have primary and secondary responsibilities in life. (7:12) And quite often we don't like our primary responsibilities because they're harder.

(7:17) So we busy ourselves with secondary responsibilities. (7:20) So for example, and I use sales as a metaphor. (7:23) The reason I do is because if you're a CEO, you're in sales, you're in accounting, or you're a mom or a dad, you can relate to sales metaphors like you can sports metaphors.

(7:32) So if you're in sales and your primary thing to do is to get in front of customers, make phone calls and set meetings, that is the number one thing most people do not like to do in sales. (7:42) They don't like that work. (7:44) So what they do is they call their boss and their boss is like, hey, how many appointments you have today?

(7:49) And they go, hey, yeah, well, I couldn't get to it because I've got all this administrative work that I need to do. (7:55) And they don't really have any administrative work to do. (7:58) What happens is whenever we take a secondary responsibility like administrative work and we put it out of a primary responsibility, we know we're not doing what we're supposed to do.

(8:08) And now we need to justify that. (8:12) In order to justify it, knowing that we have our priorities out of order, we have to make that secondary responsibility really complicated and really hard to justify why we did it all day because at the end of the day, our boss, our wife, our spouse, our friend, our colleague is gonna say, hey, did you get XYZ done, your primary responsibilities? (8:31) And now you're gonna have to justify why you didn't get them done.

(8:33) And in order to do that, you have to have some long, big, complex story about something that was super simple. (8:38) And here's the kicker. (8:39) On the day that you wake up and you do your secondary responsibilities before your primary responsibility, you'll never get to your primary responsibility.

(8:47) On the day that you do your primary responsibilities first, you will get not only those done, but every other secondary responsibility because you have mental freedom.

Julian Hayes II

(8:59) When people listen to that, I hope they rerun it back because I saw myself in some of those habits right there still at times.

Dave Durand

(9:05) And by the way, that's the way we all learn it, myself included. (9:08) You could say that I've learned these things from all the other people in the world. (9:11) Well, yeah, I've seen some, but I've done a lot.

Julian Hayes II

(9:14) Yeah, and it's so interesting because our brains is so good at justifying why the secondary thing is gonna be important or why we need to do that first, right? (9:22) I can even think about something like podcasting, right? (9:24) And I'm sure you have a lot of people that talk to you about podcasting and they're like, well, I don't have a studio and a team, a production team or anything.

(9:32) And you're like, you just need to record and use Zoom or something. (9:35) And then they'll make it more complicated.

Dave Durand

(9:37) Well, you know what's really funny is too, even if you think about the biggest people in podcasting, they all say the same thing. (9:43) They just say, get content out there. (9:45) Don't even worry about this, just get the content out there.

(9:50) And here you have, I remember Warren Buffett one time was saying that he buys undervalued companies. (9:55) That's how he, even though he's not the world's wealthiest person, he's whatever, top five or whatever right now anymore, even though he was number one for a long period of time. (10:04) He is still though the number one person to have built wealth through investing.

(10:11) People like Elon built wealth through, I'm certain through a lot of investing too, but he builds his own companies. (10:16) That's a different way to build wealth. (10:18) Whereas Warren does have his company, but it was built through that.

(10:22) So he's better basically at the game of identifying a good investment and making it manifest than anybody's ever walked the planet. (10:29) Yet he said that he'll sit there with that 27 year old finance graduate and he'll look at something and say, I think this is a good buy. (10:37) And that finance graduate will look at him and go, I don't think so.

(10:39) And he's like, what about my resume? (10:43) So I have to explain this to you. (10:44) Well, here you have these incredibly effective, good podcasters out there saying, just get great content out there.

(10:50) In fact, we just built a new studio. (10:51) I kind of showed you it here. (10:52) Our lighting, this is the first, actually, Julian, this is the first podcast.

(10:57) I've even done my own podcast in the studio. (11:00) And this is the first one I've been on because we just finished a couple of days ago. (11:03) And so we don't have our light.

(11:04) We don't have anything really set here. (11:06) And you kind of heard me kind of making an apology of some of that. (11:09) We were just like, you know what?

(11:10) We just have to produce this. (11:12) We need to get it out there. (11:13) And then we'll fix that stuff later on.

(11:15) So when you take a person like Gary Vanderchuk, who says, just get content out there. (11:19) And you have a brand new podcaster that tells him is wrong because it has to be perfect. (11:22) What is that that makes that happen?

(11:24) Pride. (11:25) And pride comes with blindness. (11:27) So our self-justification is fueled by pride.

(11:31) And we use it mostly to give ourselves a pass to be lazy.

Julian Hayes II

(11:35) Yeah, and that's a good tie-in talking about pride. (11:38) And when people see you, they'll come across and they'll see a nine-figure company in five years. (11:44) And that's gonna get the headlines.

(11:46) But a lot of times, I've talked to enough people now to know that a lot of things happen for that to even become a reality. (11:52) A lot of not so comfortable things. (11:54) And for you, I saw it, you started over at around 41.

(11:58) I went through a divorce and you had the kids and then just decimated financially. (12:04) And so I'm curious on that. (12:06) When that all happens, what's the first step if you remember that you did to like, okay, to get yourself kind of readjusted?

Dave Durand

(12:13) Well, for me, I've gone through a few difficult things like that and like that are kind of traumatic here over the years. (12:25) But I would say that the number one thing is that we have to remember there are people that depend on us. (12:32) So most people will do something more for somebody else than they will do themselves.

(12:38) Now, there are a lot of people who are narcissistic in the world. (12:41) I'm not talking about mental illness right now. (12:43) And I'm not talking about a person who sold their soul.

(12:45) I'm talking about the everyday run-of-the-mill person. (12:48) Most of those people will do something more for somebody else than they will for themselves. (12:53) So if you're saying to yourself, I want to just give up in life, but you know people depend on you, you probably get up and you'll do that.

(13:00) So we also have to though, turn our focus toward that. (13:03) So if you take the everyday run-of-the-mill Joe who goes through a traumatic thing in life and they want to give up and way too many people do give up, they have people that depend on them in life. (13:13) Now, one of those Joes goes on and turns it around.

(13:18) The other one just opens a bottle and slowly takes their life, okay, or sometimes fast. (13:27) They both have people that they depend on and they both are very much the same person, but they're making a different decision. (13:36) And the decision that they need to make is centered on what I write about in my book.

(13:40) The first principle of greatness, if you want to be a giant in the world and go slay dragons, and that is to master the cardinal virtues. (13:47) And the first of those cardinal virtues is prudence and mastering prudence. (13:52) Prudence is the mastery of decision-making would be the best way to look at it.

(13:59) And Julian, you know, as well as I do that people don't talk about it really anymore. (14:02) I mean, if you say the word prudence, you almost hear the word prude and it's like some poindexter with glasses sitting in the corner saying, I'm not gonna do that because it wouldn't be prudent. (14:10) And they're kind of using it as a wimpy way to go out.

(14:12) It's not. (14:13) I mean, if you were to look at prudence, like, you know, back in the day of the great philosophers, it would have looked like a Marvel statue. (14:21) I mean, like, you know, a total, total bad-ass and all sorts of strength because the most powerful thing in the world is a decision.

(14:29) There is nothing more powerful in the world than that. (14:31) You are here because of a decision. (14:32) I am here because of a decision.

(14:34) You know, people make first primary decisions and secondary decisions, all these things. (14:40) But it's always frustrated me, Julian, I don't know if you've ever gone through this, where people give you advice and you don't know what to take even though it's good advice. (14:45) They'll say things like, you need to believe to achieve.

(14:48) I always hated that when I was young because I was like, well, I don't. (14:52) And they would just repeat it. (14:52) You need to believe.

(14:53) And I was like, yeah, well, I still don't believe. (14:55) How do you do that? (14:56) There are actually ways that you can teach people how to believe to achieve.

(14:59) I can show people how to do that. (15:01) But if somebody says to you, you're making bad decisions in order to get your life in order, in order for you to manage those difficult things in life, you need to begin with mastering decision-making. (15:12) And the person's always made bad decisions.

(15:14) They're gonna feel a little bit like almost picked on because they're gonna say, okay, great, but I make bad decisions. (15:19) I don't know how to make good decisions. (15:21) So there are first, there are three steps.

(15:22) And that's what's so cool about it is you can take all these philosophical, heavy duty, hard ideas and put them in the most simple form so anyone can use them. (15:31) So if a person wants to take their life and start to build a snowball that they're gonna put on top of a mountain that's gonna turn into an absolute avalanche of greatness, it starts this way. (15:41) There are three first steps to prudence, mastering decisions.

(15:44) One, desire what is good. (15:47) If you think about that in a relationship, at work, on this podcast, going to the grocery store, anything you do, if you don't desire what is good, drive safely, buy the things that I need, do a good job here for Julian because this is his audience, build a company, help people make money, be a good employee, be faithful to my wife. (16:04) If you don't desire those good things, nothing good will happen.

(16:07) So that's the first thing. (16:08) And the hard part about it is that a lot of people, they don't desire anything good. (16:11) They desire to get one over on somebody and they're putting themselves on a pathway, even if in the short term, they can get away with it or they're gonna be in demise.

(16:19) The second thing is know what is true. (16:22) And then the third thing is act upon what is good. (16:25) These are Aristotelian, by the way.

(16:29) This Aristotle used slightly different words, St. Thomas Aquinas actually did too, but they're usable for anybody. (16:36) Now, remember the cardinal virtues aren't religious. (16:39) Okay, Aristotle wasn't religious, so to speak.

(16:42) They're human, they're human nature. (16:43) Everybody has access to them. (16:46) They're like the muscles of the will and the intellect that allow us to become stronger.

(16:50) We have American terms for this like fortitude and situativeness and all these different types of things doing the grind. (16:57) But what people don't realize is they all build on each other. (17:00) So for example, in prudence, if I'm a baker and I bake cakes and I desire to make bad cakes at an unreasonable price that are ugly, I can't get anything done.

(17:13) I have to desire what is good as a baker, great cakes that are attractive at a reasonable price. (17:18) Now I make a bunch of cakes and I give my cakes out to 20 people and I have 20 out of 20 people go, dude, I hate your cakes, man, they're bad. (17:26) Okay, and I look at those people and I say, you're tasting them wrong.

(17:29) And I don't know reality. (17:32) So I can desire what is good and even if I desire what is good, but I'm making bad cakes, I have to know what is real. (17:36) What is real is nobody likes my cakes.

(17:38) So I have to act on that. (17:40) And I have to go back to the cake laboratory and bake some great cakes so that I not only desire what is good, but I know what is real. (17:48) Now I've made great cakes and I act upon making more and selling them.

(17:52) See, if you don't do that, you have no access to the other three cardinal virtues. (17:57) And those are the things (17:58) that even if a person doesn't know they're using them, (18:01) you think of all the greatest athletes, (18:02) all the greatest actors, (18:03) all the greatest business leaders in the world, (18:06) when they have success to the degree they have success, (18:09) it's because they exercise the cardinal virtues (18:11) and the three transcendentals, (18:13) or actually there's four transcendentals, (18:17) consciously or unconsciously, (18:18) and they build on each other.

(18:20) So without prudence, you can't have fairness or justice. (18:23) You can't have courage and stick-to-itiveness and you can't have self-control. (18:27) That's what leads to the rest of these things, which everybody knows are also part of success.

Julian Hayes II

(18:32) And since we're talking about these virtues, we can go into the other three. (18:36) Do you think prudence is the most difficult one for people?

Dave Durand

(18:41) Well, I think that it is because it's the first one. (18:45) That's the reason why. (18:47) So without prudence, you can't have fairness.

(18:49) Can you imagine being in front of a judge who does not have prudence? (18:54) So they don't desire what is good. (18:55) They don't know what is real and they won't act on what's good.

(18:59) How can they possibly be fair? (19:02) They can't be fair. (19:03) Can you imagine having a leader you work for that doesn't desire what's good, know what's real or act on good?

(19:09) They can't have fairness. (19:10) So in order to have fairness, you need that. (19:13) Now, you can't have fortitude without those fortitudes, that courage, that stick-to-itiveness.

(19:18) So we think about this. (19:19) You're like, oh man, that dude's a base jumper. (19:21) He's got all sorts of courage.

(19:23) For our audience that doesn't know, base jumping is jumping off a low cliff or a building with a chute that opens right at the last second. (19:29) Takes a bit of courage and coordination. (19:33) Well, if you're 27 years old and you have two small kids and a lot of responsibilities and you've been uncoordinated your whole life and all of a sudden you watch a video on base jumping and you're like, hey, I'm gonna do that.

(19:44) You don't have courage or fortitude. (19:46) You're nuts. (19:47) You're literally crazy.

(19:48) So people see things that look like fortitude with people that don't have prudence and justice and they're just crazy people. (19:56) And why? (19:56) Because, well, that's not fair to the kids.

(19:59) That's not fair to anybody. (20:01) There's no justice in you trying to get some rush where you could potentially die. (20:05) But it's not about base jumping.

(20:07) I don't make an accusation against base jumping. (20:09) And if you're 21 years old, you've been coordinated your whole life, you don't have a kid and wife and Red Bull's gonna give you a big sponsorship, go for it. (20:18) I mean, if you're 85 years old and you have all your affairs in order, it might be cool for the grandkids to see grandpa go out that way.

(20:24) So it's not about base jumping. (20:26) It's about where that fits. (20:29) So if you see a person who's a fearful person because they don't have justice and they don't have prudence, that's why.

(20:36) If you see a person that has no self-control, which is temperance, the last of these, you think about that. (20:42) Okay, I'm making good decisions. (20:43) I know what fairness is and justice.

(20:45) I have fortitude. (20:46) And now when it's sunny day and I should be working, I still go to work. (20:52) When I'm married, but somebody that's pretty beautiful just walked by, I don't take that second look, let alone go further.

(20:58) Well, if you don't have fortitude, justice and prudence, you are prey to every one of those temptations and you will fall when it comes to temperance every time. (21:09) So I think that's why your point is so good that prudence is the most difficult one because it's kind of foundational to the rest.

Julian Hayes II

(21:18) And I think this goes into, I watched a couple of your videos and you talked about winning the world without losing your soul. (21:24) And I think that's such a great thing that transcends even just business, but who you are as a person, your relationships. (21:32) And kind of as I've gotten to just consume your material, it seems like all these things are integrated.

(21:38) It's not business over here, personal over here. (21:40) It's they're one. (21:42) Now, did that come just from personal experience where you used to try to compartmentalize different aspects of your life?

Dave Durand

(21:49) Yeah, I think I did when I was younger. (21:53) I had a good role model in my father and that's something to be grateful for in that I could tell that he integrated his life effectively. (22:02) He wasn't a different guy on Sunday morning than he was on Saturday night.

(22:06) He was the same guy altogether as well as Wednesday at noon. (22:09) So I saw that example. (22:13) Over life, you start to recognize that even more and more.

(22:17) And I think you learn the lesson when you're around people who aren't like that. (22:21) Because if you're around people who do compartmentalize, the classic mafia who can go to church on Sunday and kiss their wife while they go murder someone and sleep with their girlfriend, that's pretty problematic. (22:34) The problem is that most of us don't see it in ourselves not those extremes, okay?

(22:41) Hopefully those are easy to see. (22:42) But we don't see it in ourselves until we have somebody do some sort of injustice to us. (22:48) And if we have humility, we stop and we say, well, why did I not like that?

(22:52) And am I doing that anywhere in life? (22:54) Where am I responsible for things like that? (22:56) And how can I change those on my own?

(22:59) And then we start to integrate those things and we have more authenticity. (23:03) Yeah, so it's...

Julian Hayes II

(23:04) And another interesting thing I saw in the book was becoming a great leader despite your shortcomings. (23:11) Yeah, yeah. (23:11) I found that interesting.

Dave Durand

(23:13) Yeah, I mean, it's a super important thing to do. (23:16) And you're old enough in life to kind of recognize. (23:21) See, when we're young, we either think we don't have any ability or talent or skill, or we're overconfident.

(23:28) And then we start to recognize that, and what you're talking about Julian here is humility. (23:34) Okay, so when you say that you can do well despite your shortcomings, that's humility. (23:39) Humility is...

(23:40) The best way to look at it is it's precision truth about ourselves. (23:43) And most people look at humility and they over-virtuize it. (23:48) And they basically go, humility would be like looking at Michael Jordan in his heyday and saying, hey, Jordan, we're down by two.

(23:55) There's three seconds left. (23:56) We needed to take a shot. (23:58) And for Jordan to go, nah, not me.

(23:59) Why don't you let Rodman? (24:01) No, no, no, that's not humility. (24:03) That would be like a false humility, which is like a pride.

(24:06) Humility is certainly to say, you know what? (24:09) I am Michael Jordan and I have the best odds of making that shot. (24:12) So I will take that shot.

(24:13) And I will live with whatever consequence takes place. (24:15) If I make it, great. (24:17) If I don't, I'll accept that too.

(24:19) And basically being unafraid of those different types of things. (24:24) Now, when he played baseball, he could have been a good baseball player, I think too, but in the short period of time that he did, he wasn't that outstanding because he couldn't get that muscle memory yet. (24:33) So if somebody said you should bat cleanup, because we're about to try to win this game, he'd have been better off saying somebody else should do that.

(24:40) Same person, okay? (24:42) Great athlete no matter what, different application and humility comes out a little bit different in a different way.

Julian Hayes II

(24:50) And so the antihero, that was another thing. (24:53) And I think sometimes in this world now we can, a lot of people can probably fall prey to that notion in terms of you can see a person gets a certain amount of success being a certain way and maybe he's not following those virtues, right? (25:09) But he's seemingly getting away from that.

(25:11) I guess, what's your, I don't know, I guess rebuttal to that?

Dave Durand

(25:16) Well, I like that you mentioned it because in the first part of my book, I talk a lot about antiheroes. (25:21) Because when you look at TV today or movies today, there are very few, and I'm not like this big critic of, I'm not one of these guys that's just taking throwaway, in fact, I acted in my first film and I wrote a film, but I acted with James Franco and Tommy Lee Jones this last summer in a film that hopefully is coming out next year. (25:41) Never acted before, but I was asked to do this and I had a handful of lines in there.

(25:46) That was kind of a fun, adventurous experience. (25:48) So I'm not one to just take all of Hollywood and throw it away. (25:51) But if you look at things like even Yellowstone, which, wow, great writing, incredible story, the acting, come on, it's amazing, right?

(26:02) It kind of draws you right in. (26:03) But no character in there is a good person. (26:07) They're all very bad people.

(26:09) I mean, literally each person is abundantly corrupt beyond the norm. (26:14) The reason this is bad is because in our society today, people are influenced by the characters that they watch. (26:21) Now that doesn't mean that every single Hollywood film needs to be one where everybody's objective in it is to lay some sort of moral character.

(26:33) Sometimes it's just silly entertainment. (26:35) But you have a certain responsibility, I think, to know that you're gonna influence and shape people in a particular way. (26:39) I don't have any problems with those things in Yellowstone.

(26:43) I've watched the whole thing. (26:44) But if I were making Yellowstone, I would have a distinct difference between the good people and the bad people in it. (26:51) Now, I wouldn't make that distinction by way of the good people always act perfect.

(26:55) There's like B-rates movies like that out there. (26:58) And the bad people are all bad. (26:59) No, no, no, there's complexities.

(27:02) And I think that one of the reasons that Yellowstone is so good is that you see certain complexities. (27:06) You see tension between the good side and their bad side. (27:09) But every one of them has moral relativism.

(27:12) And that's the problem. (27:14) They don't show a good person who has a weak moment and falls. (27:19) That's really good film.

(27:21) They are all bad people who use whatever circumstance to get their way, to get their way happen. (27:27) That is it. (27:27) They're only loyal to the people they wanna be loyal to because they get something out of it.

(27:31) And this is complex. (27:33) And people start to learn by way of this. (27:35) So they start to have a moral relativism.

(27:38) Like it's only good to do good when I need something because otherwise they don't get anything out of it. (27:44) Otherwise, why would I do it? (27:45) But moral relativism is stupid.

(27:50) It really is stupid. (27:51) Like for me, if I'm interviewing somebody for any role of substantiality and they're a moral relativist, I will not work with them. (27:58) Like if they say there is no such thing as absolute truth, for example.

(28:05) Let me put this as mild and kind and charitable as I can. (28:10) They're flaming idiots. (28:12) Okay, that's as mild as I can be.

(28:14) Because to say there is no such thing as a absolute truth is an absolute truth. (28:20) Like literally, is that true that there's no such thing as an absolute truth? (28:23) Absolutely.

(28:23) Well, then there's an absolute truth. (28:25) And you literally have that basic ability to use reason and ration and philosophical discernment. (28:34) You have none.

(28:35) Now, not only that, when they say there's no such thing as a moral absolute, what they are saying is that with you, my boss, if I can get away with it, I will. (28:45) So they are telling you two things. (28:47) They can't think, and they're gonna try to get one over on you.

(28:51) Never work with a moral absolutist. (28:53) They don't have the qualifications to sharpen your pencils unless you think they might steal them. (28:58) And they might sharpen the eraser.

Julian Hayes II

(29:01) Yeah, and this seems like it's another, this is why it seems like it's even more important to really know your values and principles and really be attuned with those virtues before you ever even start thinking about even making your first hire. (29:12) Because you're building that cultural foundation right there. (29:16) Which got me to, there was a couple of questions you asked at the end of the chapter.

(29:19) I thought it was interesting. (29:20) You asked, why do I want that? (29:22) Then you went, or who will I become if I have to, if I have it?

(29:27) And then the last one was, how will the way in which I go about that shape who I am? (29:34) And so I'm curious with you, with working with a lot of people over the years, a lot of times you probably ask those questions and maybe it's surface level initially, right? (29:44) Do you have to keep probing to really get to that truth?

Dave Durand

(29:46) So I don't really ask people those questions as much as I make statements to get them to think a little bit. (29:55) So I believe in a couple of different things in the workplace. (29:58) One is I believe in really a very strong sense of security in the workplace.

(30:05) I want people when they're working with me to feel very secure. (30:10) And so there are two things that I remind them that are related to this. (30:14) That's who will I become when I do it?

(30:16) But I always tell people, listen, it's not so much what you do that matters. (30:19) It's who you become when you do what you do that matters. (30:23) So I've had people that come into a job and I can tell it's a job.

(30:26) So there's three different things. (30:27) There's a job, there's a career and there's a vocation. (30:29) The job is where you exchange time for money and it can be a noble thing, but it's miserable.

(30:33) Why is it noble? (30:33) Well, my kids need food. (30:35) I wanna be productive.

(30:36) I can't really find a great thing that I want yet. (30:38) So I'll sacrifice in the meantime while I find the right thing. (30:40) A career is better because it's a chosen profession.

(30:44) But if you look at American Idol in the first week or two, you've got these people that can sing worse than me and I can't even sing happy birthday. (30:53) And they're like, I will be the next American Idol. (30:55) Well, that's like a career.

(30:56) You can choose it and that's good, but if you're not good at it, you're gonna be miserable the whole time. (31:02) Then a vocation is a chosen profession for which I am well-suited, okay? (31:06) So I've had people that start with me in a job and it's sacrificial.

(31:10) And I say, listen, I know you probably don't wanna be here right now, but you've gotta do it. (31:14) Listen, don't think about the work that you're doing. (31:16) Because yeah, you're beyond that, okay?

(31:19) But who can you become through the work that you're doing, especially if it's something you don't feel like doing right now? (31:23) And they'll stay longer and they'll feel even better when they're done because it shapes them. (31:29) And oftentimes they find a new opportunity to be in a bigger role because of that.

(31:33) So when you give people this opportunity to become a better person through their work, no matter what the work is, that's when they're very loyal to you. (31:42) And they're also very loyal to you when you are not shocking them with a standard, okay? (31:49) So the number one concern, Julian, you probably know this, that people have when they have a job is what does my boss think of me?

(31:59) Do they think I'm doing a good job? (32:02) If they get to a point of jaded, they might not care, but they're on their way out. (32:05) But for the most part, people are like, I don't know, how am I doing?

(32:08) I don't get feedback. (32:09) I wanna know what do they think? (32:10) And they go to bed at night with anxiety because nobody told them how they were doing.

(32:14) And they'd rather be told they're not doing a good job and know than wonder. (32:19) And so these are the things that actually kind of get in the way. (32:22) So what I do is I help people self-manage.

(32:24) And I say, if you wanna know you're doing a good job, it's gonna be quite simple. (32:27) Here are three things that I'm gonna ask you to do. (32:29) This, this, and this.

(32:31) And they need to be done on a daily basis. (32:33) Sometimes it's not quite as easy to find, but you can almost always find a way to define it. (32:37) If you do those things, even if I'm not there to tell you great job, know that I'm saying, I'm saying to myself, great job.

(32:44) If you do two of them, know that I'm saying, not such a great job, that can't happen tomorrow. (32:50) And if you did one, know that I'm pretty disappointed. (32:53) And now you don't need me to tell you how you're doing.

(32:55) Now, any great leader will provide the feedback anyway. (32:59) But that ability to give the person the power to self-regulate the quality of their work is super important. (33:06) And that helps them become who they wanna be through the work they're gonna do.

(33:12) And why leading giants? (33:14) What was the inspiration behind that? (33:15) Oh, I love that question.

(33:17) Cause it's like the most basic, right? (33:18) The title of the book, Leading Giants. (33:21) Because if you want to lead small people to do small things, you'll have a small outcome.

(33:27) If you want to lead great people to do great things, you have to give them a lot of room to roam and a big diet, and they will become giants. (33:37) And the only way to lead giants is to be a giant. (33:39) And you know what giants do?

(33:41) Giants don't swat flies, they slay dragons. (33:45) And that is also very important to me because frankly speaking, life is an adventure. (33:51) And when people accept the adventure of life, and I have 12 steps that I walk people through in one of my seminars.

(33:56) It's like my kind of like masterclass seminar that people can come to the Dragon Slayer Theater right here where I am. (34:02) And we do this course on leadership and self mastery. (34:06) And the first step, there's like 12 thought patterns that people really go through.

(34:11) I kind of address some of these things in the book, but I don't lay it out in the 12 because it's a separate type of workshop. (34:18) But one of those is, and the first one is, be willing to accept that life is an adventure, which means it's got protagonists, it's got antagonists, it's got villains, it's got some backstabbing, it's got loss, it's got pain. (34:33) You know, the story that's never been read or made into a movie or passed down from one generation to another is the one about the two rich kids who are totally handsome and healthy, who lived an abundant life with their amazingly rich, handsome, healthy parents who ran a fantastic, highly profitable business that never faced any challenge.

(34:51) And then the parents died 100 years old, completely peaceful in bed while the children are 80 years old and taking over the business which they passed down to their 60-year-old kids who are doing a fantastic job, watching all of their grandkids live in prosperity, boring. (35:04) Everybody likes the story of challenge and betrayal and loss and sacrifice and bloodshed and coming back around, and our life is that. (35:13) And as soon as you start fighting against the idea that we will have, especially the more good you do in life, the more enemies you will have.

(35:23) And, you know, even Mother Teresa had enemies, but then you take any political candidate on either side or you take the Pope and the Dalai Lama and you're gonna see people with a whole lot of bashing pages and a whole lot of great pages when you reach a certain level of substantiality which doesn't even need to be that. (35:41) It could be the most substantial that you are. (35:42) You know, frankly, if you're substantial in your home as a father or a mother or you're substantial in your business or in your neighborhood, you're gonna have some people for you and some people against you because anybody who stands for something will.

(35:54) And that's why we need to accept life as an adventure.

Julian Hayes II

(35:59) Do you think anyone can become a giant? (36:02) Do you think we all have that in us?

Dave Durand

(36:04) Oh, yes, I definitely do. (36:06) Now, we all become giants different ways though. (36:09) And this is very, very important.

(36:12) You know, one of the confusions right now, even in like the DEI stuff, and you see in the book that I even quote like a Harvard review that shows that this does not produce unity or goodness or productivity or effectiveness. (36:27) I mean, this objectively speaking, let's remove opinions and let's just take the, you know, hundreds of companies that were studied by Harvard which is not any sort of right, you know, bastion leaning anything. (36:39) And you take the objective reality of the circumstance.

(36:42) Why doesn't it work? (36:45) Well, it doesn't work because it runs entirely against human nature. (36:49) And when you run against human nature, everybody knows it.

(36:52) So when people came into my business or any business that I'm in, I always say, look around, what do you see? (36:56) And they say, it's very diverse. (36:57) And I say, yes, you know why?

(36:59) And they're like, why? (37:00) And I say, well, because we don't care about diversity. (37:02) And they're like, whoa, what's happening here?

(37:03) And I say, listen, there's one reason you're here. (37:07) Why? (37:08) Because we think you're gonna be the best.

(37:09) That's it. (37:10) The reason you're here is because we are looking at you thinking you're gonna be great at this. (37:15) There's no other reason.

(37:16) You're not here because you're a middle-aged white bald guy, okay? (37:18) You're here because we think you're gonna do the best. (37:21) Well, that immediately sets trust.

(37:23) And it doesn't matter. (37:24) The businesses that I'm in, we have people on the far left, on the far right, people that go home to every different type of person that there is, people who have a religious philosophy or practice and people who don't. (37:34) And we all get along.

(37:35) Why? (37:36) Because we have a uniting thing and that's human nature. (37:40) And that human nature, it doesn't lie to us.

(37:42) We know when something doesn't feel right or doesn't feel fair. (37:46) And we say to ourselves, okay, well, wow, this is great. (37:50) Why am I being appreciated?

(37:51) Because you think I'm gonna be great at this? (37:53) That's the reason? (37:54) Yes.

(37:55) Not because you're 19, not because you're 96, not because you're a man, not because you're a woman, but because you're great. (38:01) That is why. (38:03) Your greatness is the thing that stands out.

(38:05) Now, it happens to be awesome that your greatness comes in that form. (38:10) What an incredible way to make it even more adventure and even more like dynamic and to add flavor to this entire organization. (38:19) But the thing about you is your greatness in what you do.

(38:22) People get that. (38:23) They know that. (38:24) They understand that.

(38:25) And they're united by it.

Julian Hayes II

(38:27) If we inherently know that, right? (38:30) Is it something that I think people are just, there's so much distractions going on or like we know this thing inherently, like you mentioned, that we know this feeling, but why is there such a huge disconnect with that going on right now?

Dave Durand

(38:44) Well, I think the disconnect comes from a couple of different places. (38:51) When you take a person's self-agency away, they are helpless. (38:57) I'll give you a great example of how this works.

(38:59) In today's day and age, young people are raised. (39:02) Now, I'm really getting into it here, Julian, but this matters, okay? (39:06) Because I don't really make judgments about this.

(39:08) I make observations, particularly as a CEO, because I work with all sorts of people. (39:13) And I don't want people spending a whole lot of time judging me as I don't wanna judge them. (39:18) But there's a huge difference between making judgments and being judgmental.

(39:22) I couldn't be on this show and you couldn't be on the show without making judgments. (39:25) What should I wear? (39:26) What should you wear?

(39:27) Okay, you picked better than me, by the way. (39:28) Your judgment was better, but I made this judgment and I'm here. (39:31) You judged what you were gonna eat this morning.

(39:32) You judged what car you were gonna drive. (39:34) You judged what friends you're gonna have or not have and who you're gonna hire or not have. (39:37) So we have to make judgments, but you can do that without being judgmental, okay?

(39:43) And when it comes to raising kids, which is very similar. (39:48) Now, the difference between a business and employees who are adults and children is that they're adults and they're children. (39:54) So the analogy breaks down.

(39:55) It would be disrespectful to make it a full analogy. (39:58) Let's not do that. (39:59) But there are parallels and the parallels are important.

(40:02) The first parallel is this, is if you have a kid who doesn't clean their room and you clean it for them. (40:07) You teach them, they're not able to clean their room. (40:10) If you have a kid who loses a soccer game and you say, oh, that probably hurts and we're not gonna keep score so we can protect them from the fact that you lost.

(40:18) They all know, every kid who you keep the score from knows the score, but now they're taught that is so painful, I can't accept it, okay? (40:29) And even if I lose, somebody has to pretend that I didn't lose because the worst thing in the world to face is loss. (40:37) As soon as you teach somebody that the worst thing in the world to face is loss, they'll do everything to prevent loss.

(40:44) And then you take away their self agency by doing everything for them. (40:47) And then you tell them that they're actually a child until they're 26 years old or beyond. (40:53) And what do you get?

(40:54) A child. (40:55) In fact, it's kind of an insult to their intellect if you clean their room for them but they start doing it on their own. (41:02) I mean, that's kind of intellectually stupid, right?

(41:05) I mean, in virtue, it's weak, but I mean, how smart are you to do the job somebody else is gonna do it for you and you have all these protections. (41:14) And then they put their kids on like Life 360, it's app, where, and by the way, there are some, I don't know if you know the app, I think it's called Life 360. (41:23) I get hate mail on this and compliment mail every time I say it.

(41:27) And I wanna be clear because some of the people who give me the hate mail, I'm not actually talking about. (41:32) Like if you have a daughter, so what this app does, it tracks where you go, wherever you are, whatever you do, how fast you drive your car, how much money you spend, where you spend your money, everything. (41:42) Like it is like helicopter parenting to the nth degree.

(41:48) And these people put their kids on it. (41:50) Now, again, if you've got like a 25-year-old daughter who's single that just moves to New York city and you're like, dad, can you kind of track me because I'm out here? (41:56) I'm not talking about that.

(41:58) I'm not talking about like willful adults saying, hey, let's have each other's backs and look out for each other or a husband and wife. (42:06) And I'm not even talking necessarily about a certain kid at a certain age. (42:09) But when you leave your 18-year-old son on that app and you put them into college, you say, I don't trust you, you're not capable, you can't make good decisions and I'm going to protect and watch everything in you and you raise a coward.

(42:24) And you watch that kid and he, I mean, I see, you know, like I'm in Florida here and I'm like behind a super slow car that's making super slow, bad decisions and they will barely go when the light turns green. (42:35) And I used to think when I moved down here, well, they're probably old, I need to be patient about it. (42:39) I drive by them, they're 24-year-old, totally afraid, wimpy dude.

(42:43) I'm like, dude, you know what I want to see you do? (42:45) I want to see you flip somebody off, squeer tires, you know, and then say, hey, I could take your girlfriend from you. (42:50) I don't really want that by the way, Julian, not even a little bit.

(42:53) But what I want is that young guy to be a man, to live life as an adventure, to like, to be willing to say, you know, safety is not the number one thing in the world, it's something more than that. (43:06) And so when we live this life as an adventure and we allow people to make mistakes and we tell them you are capable, you get great things. (43:16) I told my kids when they were 10, when you go to college or when you graduate from high school you're going to be 18.

(43:22) You're going to make a decision to go to college or not. (43:24) If you go to college, I will help you with college but I won't pay for the whole thing because I want you to be invested. (43:30) When you graduate from college, and by the way, before you go to school you have to have X amount of money saved before you even graduate from high school.

(43:37) When you go to college and you graduate, if you graduate in four years, I'll help you the whole four years. (43:43) If you take more than four years, you're paying for the last year on your own. (43:46) As long as it's a four-year degree.

(43:47) If you turn a four-year degree to a five-year degree, that's different. (43:50) If it's a five-year degree, I'd help you, okay? (43:52) Then when you graduate, you have three months to live at home if you have a commission job or if you're going to be a teacher.

(43:59) Otherwise, on day one, when you graduate and you walk across that stage, you better be getting in your car and driving to your own place, okay? (44:08) And if you are 18 and you decide not to go to college, same thing applies because you've made a decision that you're an adult and you don't need further education to go further. (44:20) And I'm an adult, you're an adult.

(44:22) I don't live in your house. (44:23) You're not going to live in mine. (44:24) I said that to them when they were 10.

(44:27) Not one of them said, oh my gosh, I feel so offended. (44:29) You're too hard on me, dad. (44:31) They were like, cool.

(44:33) What did they, they felt respected. (44:35) They felt up for the challenge. (44:37) Every one of my kids has taken me up on the challenge by the way, and happily, all on their own, you know?

(44:43) And they've gone through challenges like every kid does. (44:45) I'm not trying to say I'm the greatest parent. (44:47) I have the greatest kids.

(44:48) I do have the greatest kids, but they're normal kids. (44:50) They make life mistakes and challenges and all those things. (44:53) But they accepted the challenge because I gave it to them.

(44:56) If my challenge would have been this, listen, you know you can be 40 years old downstairs in the basement watching porn and playing video games, unemployed as long as you want. (45:06) And then when you're 40 and on drugs probably I'll beg you to maybe leave. (45:10) They take me up on that challenge too.

Julian Hayes II

(45:12) Yeah.

Dave Durand

(45:12) So people kind of rise to the occasion that they're led into and we have to be cautious about what we're doing to them to make them soft or make them harder.

Julian Hayes II

(45:20) Yeah. (45:21) And you kind of just answered one of my questions that I was going to ask. (45:24) And it was about kind of leading in today's times when you're building a team, what are some of the probably one of the most one or two things that's different now leading in today's times compared to maybe a couple of decades ago.

Dave Durand

(45:36) So this is an interesting thing because I've always been kind of a critic of the person who say kids these days or this generation is that, or this generation because it's kind of a rite of passage for people to do that. (45:47) And really, if I were to look at me when I was 20 compared to me at 55, I was an idiot. (45:54) Of course I can call it generational, but it's not generational.

(45:57) It's just, I'm young and stupid when I'm 20. (45:59) So that's kind of what that is. (46:02) There are differences now though.

(46:04) And they are real differences. (46:07) The social media has been one of the things to radically change the way people perceive each other and the way they interact with each other, the way they have friendships, what they perceive is authentic or real. (46:17) The manipulation of it is very big with what to think from who to think it.

(46:23) In the United States, our educational systems have become not everywhere, but for the most part in the public systems they've been propaganda machines. (46:34) You can now pay $750,000 over a four-year period of time to become an idiot. (46:39) And I can think of just a lot of better ways to spend $750,000.

(46:44) You could just take a camera to your head. (46:45) That's another option for that too. (46:48) So it's just, it's one of these things where those are real things more than they ever have been before.

(46:53) And so there's a lot of unthinking. (46:55) See, it was a lack of thinking for pretty much all the other generations. (46:59) You don't really think when you're 20.

(47:00) You start to think later on and all of a sudden you get there. (47:03) Well, now starting at a very young age, people are being, they're not given an invitation to seek what is true and being taught how to think about what is or is not true. (47:16) They're being told exactly what to think.

(47:20) There's a big difference between being told what to think and how to think. (47:24) And if you teach people how to think, they'll come to the truth. (47:28) If you teach them what to think, they won't even seek the truth.

Julian Hayes II

(47:33) And so I'm gonna pivot a little bit. (47:35) I have a, just out of curiosity, what is the role that like faith plays in business? (47:40) What do you think about that?

Dave Durand

(47:42) So this, I think this is a very important one because for me in my organization, so I am a Catholic who's all in, okay? (47:52) But I don't expect that of anybody that I work with. (47:54) In fact, I'm actually very dubious of the person who I've ever worked with who shakes my hand and says, trust me, I'm a Christian or trust me, I'm a whatever.

(48:02) I'm like, red flag there, probably won't because you might be using it as a distraction. (48:07) Now, I think it was GK Chesterton that said something like, even if I weren't Catholic, I would want my accountant, my lawyer, and my attorney, okay? (48:15) And doctor or whatever.

(48:16) It's actually a pretty good point if you think of it. (48:18) Now that doesn't necessarily mean Catholic, but a moral absolutist is a good person to be around. (48:23) So if you believe that lying, cheating, and stealing are wrong, no matter what, and that even if you don't get caught on earth, God sees it all, and that there is an eternal consequence for those actions, that's a person you can trust.

(48:40) Now, people who believe that don't necessarily always act by it, but if they really truly believe it, they repent from it, and they wanna change their ways to move forward. (48:50) So just believing it doesn't make you a perfect employee or the most honest person on planet earth, but it precludes you toward it. (48:57) If you're a person who's like, you know what?

(48:59) There is no God, there is no right or wrong, there's no whatever, there's no absolute truth. (49:07) I don't know how you can trust him. (49:08) Now, to be very clear, I know people who don't believe in God, but they believe in moral absolutes.

(49:14) They're like, I don't believe in God, but I also don't believe in lying. (49:17) Okay, well, great, let's work, let's work together, okay? (49:20) Now, the one thing that that person may not have (49:23) that the God-fearing person has (49:24) is if that person's not being seen, (49:27) they don't think anyone's looking, (49:29) they might be more apt to do it, (49:31) whereas the person who thinks that they're always being seen (49:33) and there's a consequence would be less, (49:34) but that also doesn't necessarily, (49:36) this person who believes in those consequences (49:38) might be really weak, (49:40) and the person who doesn't believe in God, (49:41) but believe in moral absolutes (49:42) is like super strong with virtue, (49:44) and they are unbendable. (49:46) And you know, when you're around them, you're like, man, I trust you, brother. (49:48) Like we are so different in our like ultimate beliefs, but we are so the same in other ways.

(49:54) And well, most of my friends think most of the things that I think, because that's how most, that's like a natural thing, by the way, that's how you form friendships. (50:02) Duh, our today's world tries to tell you, no, that's somehow wrong. (50:08) There's not a single group of people in the world or culture who's not more inclined to wanna be around people like themselves because that's natural.

(50:17) But what I've also found though, is that some of the most fruitful and amazing and tremendous bonded relationships that I have with people are with people who think very, very different from me on certain things, but the things that we think the same on unite us. (50:31) And I love that. (50:32) I love to be around people that are a little bit different.

(50:35) So in today's day and age, when I think about how does faith interact in the workplace, I think that it should interact by example. (50:45) I think that the more you have to tell somebody how amazingly holy you are, the less inclined you probably are to be that. (50:51) I don't start anything by saying, hey, I'm a dedicated Catholic.

(50:54) You know what I do? (50:55) I go to work. (50:56) And if people figure it out on their own, that's great because it means I'm being a good example.

(51:01) But if they're not figuring that out on their own, shame on me. (51:04) That's what I could say. (51:06) And I have learned that, see, people are generally good.

(51:11) And people who think different than me politically or religiously, they respect that, especially when you're not pounding them with it. (51:19) And when they know you're not judging them either, then they'll respect you where you are because they know that you respect them where they are. (51:26) And then you start to build bridges and unite each other towards some pretty cool things.

(51:30) That actually is totally exhilarating, by the way. (51:32) It's super fun when people can, because you can almost banter a little bit about your differences in a respectful way that guys rip on each other to build a relationship.

Julian Hayes II

(51:45) Absolutely, yeah.

Dave Durand

(51:45) And so you can do that.

Julian Hayes II

(51:47) Absolutely, I agree. (51:48) I mean, I think about just my friend circle and we're all different. (51:52) We're all different politically.

(51:55) We're all different career-wise, culture-wise, beliefs and everything. (51:58) But we have a couple of those core principles like you mentioned. (52:01) That keeps us united.

(52:03) We can go a year without talking, but we still have those things right there. (52:06) And I think that's the thing we're missing because I think it's almost a superpower because now I'm able to see the world at so many different lens because I've interacted with so many people of different areas. (52:17) So now I can at least, I may not agree with you, but I can at least see how you're seeing the world.

Dave Durand

(52:23) Yeah, exactly. (52:24) That's empathy. (52:25) Empathy is a superpower.

(52:27) Because frankly, Julian, if you or me raised where I was, by who I was, where I was, went through my life, doing the things that I did and educated the way I was, you would probably believe many of the things that I believe. (52:41) Now you're a different person, so maybe not. (52:44) If I was raised the way you were raised, wherever you were raised, or pick Damien here behind the camera or any person randomly, if we had all of their same experiences, we would believe much of what they believed.

(52:56) Now, the one thing that would change each one of us that makes us a good person in this capacity is to not believe lies. (53:04) When we live by lies, we can't have goodness. (53:06) When we live by lies, we try to dominate each other.

(53:09) A person who lives by lies tries to make people believe what they believe. (53:14) A person who lives by truth invites people to the truth. (53:17) A person who lives by lies tries to conquer a person into it.

(53:20) And there's a big difference between being in a person who invites somebody to the truth as a person who tries to beat somebody into a lie. (53:28) And that's why radically different people who are united by not even believing the same thing, but by believing in the value of what's true can be united, even if they happen to disagree about what's true. (53:44) Absolutely, absolutely.

Julian Hayes II

(53:46) And I wanna touch on this. (53:47) And I think this happens to men a lot, much more than women. (53:51) I think women are much better about this in this aspect.

(53:53) And this is suffering in silence, in solitude, as you mentioned. (53:58) You've been through a handful of tragedies. (53:59) People can just research that and see.

(54:02) And I just think about like handling grief and or just handling having to, you lose it all and start back over. (54:09) And entrepreneurs, you're most likely gonna have to do that. (54:12) Usually the first iteration is not the final one.

(54:15) Actually, I don't wanna be, we're talking about absolute. (54:17) So there's no absolute. (54:18) Maybe someone gets lucky the first time.

(54:20) I haven't seen it. (54:22) So- I mean, it happens here and there, but. (54:24) Yeah.

(54:25) In that moment, how did you start to get yourself out of, or opening up? (54:30) Cause you were suffering so much in silence and solitude. (54:32) You were still performing at a high level.

(54:34) You're still a leader of your household, leader of a lot of people, but inside there's all this suffering and pain.

Dave Durand

(54:39) Oh, inside I was dying a few different times. (54:44) Yes. (54:47) Divorce, going through divorce is very difficult.

(54:49) And I had six kids and that happened when I was 41, but then my wife was killed publicly in a, it was that Walker shop parade where a guy came through and killed a bunch of people. (55:00) And so, you go through different sufferings in different ways in different times. (55:04) And then I've had betrayal in business where, I was told one thing by a particular partner and something ended up happening that was pretty grave.

(55:14) And it's part of it. (55:15) I think there's two ways that you get past it. (55:19) One way is to know that it is a part of life.

(55:23) The second way, and for me, I just have to drop on this. (55:26) And when people ask me a personal question, I can either give the political answer, I can give the actual answer. (55:30) The actual answer for me is to know that I can handle it and God will give me the grace to do so.

(55:37) So those two things do matter. (55:41) Now, every single time that I went through a really difficult thing and I was suffering in silence, and you are right by the way, women are better at that than men. (55:48) And you look at it statistically, men are drinking more, particularly when they go through challenges, they live lives of isolation, they have high rates of suicide.

(55:59) There are all sorts of things that men go through because of the same reason that they don't ask for directions. (56:04) They have a tendency to just get trapped in their world and not have the strength. (56:09) This is one of those ways that, when you think about like feminine genius or feminine strength, that it does come out.

(56:15) Their like willingness to enter into the experience of somebody else and to share their experience is something that is a very, very good strength for anybody to actually model. (56:28) And to each their own, some men are better at it than women and some women are better than men, but by and large, that is a feminine genius, whereas men need to really kind of take a note from that. (56:38) So I think for me, I hid most of my pain.

(56:44) I was pretty darn good at just waking up and going to work and having people not know that I was in it. (56:51) That is also one of the reasons that guys get themselves in trouble is that they can put on such a good front that people go, I didn't know it was even happening. (57:00) And so I really recommend that you have a small, very good group of good friends.

(57:08) I think what social media has taught us is that somehow the quantity of superficial friends has value, it has none. (57:16) All it is is an ego boost, but it has no value. (57:19) And it's the wrong title.

(57:20) Follower is a better title, okay? (57:23) And it's a randomly interested, occasionally following person who clicked on something one time and may never go back would be even a better title, right? (57:32) But friendships, the person who's truly rich in friendships has one or two, maybe three very good friends that are outside of just family, okay?

(57:43) We all feel a little bit different in talking to a friend than we maybe do a family member. (57:48) On occasion, a sibling might be equally close as a friend and you feel just as open with that person as the other one. (57:55) But I would seek that out.

(57:57) I would do the work in good times to build good friendships with other guys. (58:02) So then in the bad times, they're there for you. (58:05) And if you do that, it's amazing.

(58:07) I mean, I would get together with my really close friends during the darkest times. (58:12) And you would think that they didn't even like me with how they were like ripping on me to make me laugh. (58:18) You were like, but I felt so loved because even in this trying time, they knew that my love language was, you know, to make fun of being bald or something like that, right?

(58:30) And it gets you to laugh a little bit, but you know that they're there for you in a real thing. (58:34) So it's a good question, Julian. (58:35) And guys really do need that.

(58:36) In good times, you make sure you build your good friends. (58:39) So then in bad times, you're there for them and they're there for you.

Julian Hayes II

(58:41) Yeah, it reminds me of my dad before he passed and everything. (58:44) And he was on dialysis for 10 plus years, had amputations everywhere. (58:48) And he always used to say to me, he's like, if I could find a way to make jokes and laugh, then whatever you're going through, you can find a way to joke about it as well and just keep going.

(58:57) And so that still stuck with me to this day.

Dave Durand

(59:00) Oh my goodness.

Julian Hayes II

(59:01) Going through the business adventure now.

Dave Durand

(59:02) It's absolutely true. (59:03) One of the greatest examples that I ever heard was a Saint named St. Lawrence. (59:08) He was being martyred.

(59:09) They were grilling him alive. (59:11) And as he's being grilled alive, he says to his torturers, hey, I'm done on this side, flip me over. (59:19) I mean, can you imagine you're being grilled alive and you take the opportunity to make a joke about being a piece of toast or a pancake?

(59:27) I mean, that's unbelievable.

Julian Hayes II

(59:30) Yeah. (59:30) I mean, yeah. (59:31) So one other thing I'm gonna touch on, cause I think it's so cool is I have nine kids now, right?

(59:37) And eight grandkids.

Dave Durand

(59:39) Yeah.

Julian Hayes II

(59:40) That's a big family. (59:41) And that's a potential huge legacy to be left behind. (59:45) So what does legacy mean to you?

Dave Durand

(59:47) Oh, I like that question too. (59:49) You know, a lot of people say, hey, what do you want your legacy to be? (59:52) I find the question to be good and bad.

(59:58) Well, it's actually neither, but you'll see what I mean when I answer this question. (1:00:02) There are some people that immediately say, well, I want my legacy to be, and they like, you know, basically give you this Alexander the Great thing. (1:00:10) And I'm always like, why?

(1:00:13) Well, how are you gonna benefit by that? (1:00:15) You're not gonna be here. (1:00:17) Like when you die, if you don't believe there's life after death, how is there value in that?

(1:00:25) There's literally no value in it. (1:00:28) And if you just think it through for four seconds, you would see that it holds no value. (1:00:33) If you've got most philosophies or understandings of the afterlife like Christian, you don't need that for satisfaction because you're gonna have it anyway without that in death.

(1:00:43) So I think there's a much more practical way of looking at legacy. (1:00:46) And the legacy would be, what good are you sharing with other people so that they themselves can ultimately have the highest level of happiness that exists in life? (1:00:58) So for me, there are four levels of happiness, and this is Aristotle at first.

(1:01:02) The first level is physical, okay? (1:01:04) And we do physical things to become happy. (1:01:08) We eat, drink, smoke, have sex, do these things, and they immediately provide a sense of relief and happiness.

(1:01:14) And in order, they're actually good, okay? (1:01:17) Out of order, they're not good, okay? (1:01:20) Consummate your marriage with your wife, awesome, good.

(1:01:22) With a neighbor's wife, bad. (1:01:26) Eat, awesome. (1:01:27) Even have a piece of pie, great.

(1:01:29) Have five, not a good idea, okay? (1:01:31) What happens is when we, I'll use a Hershey bar as an example. (1:01:36) When we have a Hershey bar, we have a certain level of happiness, and that's the physical, and use that as a metaphor for all things physical.

(1:01:42) The problem is that eventually, we now need two Hershey bars to get the same level of happiness. (1:01:49) Because we have a Hershey bar, and then we go down a little bit after the Hershey bar. (1:01:51) So we have one Hershey bar, we just come back to where we were before.

(1:01:54) We want the rush, we have two Hershey bars. (1:01:55) But now we go down twice as far. (1:01:57) And there comes a point where now you go up again, and there's so many Hershey bars you can have before you kill yourself.

(1:02:02) So these people usually go from Hershey bar level to the second level, and that is accomplishment. (1:02:10) So the first level of accomplishment is physical, or of gratification, okay, or happiness is physical. (1:02:17) The second is accomplishment.

(1:02:18) So they say, well, Oprah, I was an addict. (1:02:20) My life was horrible. (1:02:21) I turned it around, and I won a gold medal, I wrote a book, I built a billion dollar company, I conquered whatever.

(1:02:28) And Oprah says, oh my gosh, that's great, you turned your life around. (1:02:32) And everybody loves it, okay? (1:02:34) And then they say, but then I became completely unhappy and dissatisfied again, because I realized I couldn't win enough gold medals, write enough books, make enough money to feel satisfied.

(1:02:44) I felt satisfied longer than I did when I had a joint, but I don't feel satisfied long-term, it goes away. (1:02:51) So you know what I did, Oprah? (1:02:52) I started giving.

(1:02:54) So now I have a charitable foundation that does this and this, and people tell me I'm amazing, and I feel really good, and it lasts longer, and it is bigger. (1:03:01) So they go from the physical level of gratification to the accomplishment level of gratification to the philanthropic level of gratification, but then ultimately speaking, every single human being stops, and they aren't ultimately happy until they grapple with the existential happiness. (1:03:21) The existential happiness is what man, are you familiar with the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl?

Julian Hayes II

(1:03:26) Yeah, it was a gift given to me.

Dave Durand

(1:03:28) Yes, given to you. (1:03:30) Every philosophy and even therapist major has read it at some point, let alone great historians. (1:03:38) And of course, Viktor Frankl was suffering in Auschwitz, probably the worst place to ever be, and going through enormous pain, and he started to study, why are some people staying healthy and doing well here while others are dying?

(1:03:51) And he recognized that they were, first of all, they were philanthropic. (1:03:56) So they'd gone through, they were in miserable physical pain, and they couldn't really do much for accomplishment, but they did small tasks to keep themselves busy. (1:04:04) But then ultimately speaking, they'd be given a 300 calorie diet of mush and be very hungry, but they'd see somebody else who they thought needed it more, and they'd give their 300 calories of mush to somebody else.

(1:04:15) They didn't eat anything, and ironically, they became healthier than the person who they gave their food to. (1:04:20) And they never stopped thinking about going home. (1:04:23) They never stopped having hope.

(1:04:25) He built this into what's called logotherapy. (1:04:28) So they had an existential desire. (1:04:33) Now, ultimately speaking, man's search for meaning is, why am I here and where am I going?

(1:04:40) And every single human being has to wrestle with their death. (1:04:45) And once a person starts saying, what happens after I die? (1:04:50) That's when all the true happiness can come into their life.

(1:04:54) Because they either say, there is no life after death, which means I have a lot more partying to do here. (1:04:59) By the way, very bad idea and also not true. (1:05:01) But they come to that decision.

(1:05:04) It's the only rational conclusion, right? (1:05:06) That if there's nothing after death, get away with as much as you possibly can here. (1:05:10) All right?

(1:05:10) If your legacy is not gonna matter and the rest of it is totally irrational, even if a person says, no, if you're good. (1:05:14) No, it doesn't make sense. (1:05:17) And then the second one is, what is that ultimate thing?

(1:05:22) Everybody who wakes up in the morning going, what I love about today is, somebody else is in control of my life and I don't know what's gonna happen to me. (1:05:30) Nobody. (1:05:31) Everybody wants to know what's gonna happen in their day.

(1:05:33) What are we doing today? (1:05:34) You're married with somebody. (1:05:34) What's the plan today?

(1:05:35) You have a boss. (1:05:36) What are we doing today? (1:05:37) What's the plan?

(1:05:37) Everybody wants to know. (1:05:39) What am I gonna do for school? (1:05:40) What am I gonna do for a job?

(1:05:42) You're worried about it. (1:05:42) What am I gonna do for retirement? (1:05:44) So people work their entire life as hard as they possibly can.

(1:05:47) By the way, I'm not even trying to be like some sort of like Christian evangelist here, even though I have my Catholic beliefs. (1:05:53) I'm just talking to human beings no matter where they are, right? (1:05:56) As a human being, you're working your entire life to save for retirement.

(1:06:00) You're teaching your kids to study, to work hard, to do good, why? (1:06:04) So you can retire someday and you make sure that they're healthy when they retire and they're financially set when they retire. (1:06:10) Why?

(1:06:11) For 20 years of pickleball? (1:06:13) Are you kidding me? (1:06:15) What about after that?

(1:06:16) Isn't there something after that? (1:06:18) And if we would work 65 years as diligently and hard as we possibly could to get 20 years worth of pickleball out of things, what happens after that? (1:06:27) And if you give it any thought (1:06:28) and the reason that so many people (1:06:29) have so much dissatisfaction in life (1:06:31) is because they're trying to find happiness (1:06:33) in smoking, drinking, sex, eating, (1:06:35) in accomplishing, building, selling a business, (1:06:37) having all sorts of things, (1:06:39) then giving a bunch of stuff away (1:06:40) and they realize they can't eat enough, drink enough, (1:06:41) build enough, smoke enough, or get enough (1:06:44) to have happiness and that the wrestle with (1:06:46) how did I get here and where am I going? (1:06:49) And until we start wrestling with that, we can't have any satisfaction in life even though all three of those other things in order are very, very good and very satisfying and I advocate for every one of them.

Julian Hayes II

(1:07:02) Yeah, and wow. (1:07:04) The last question here is if you can only share one message with your family before you leave, what would that message be?

Dave Durand

(1:07:11) Oh, well, okay. (1:07:12) Now you're asking me a very, very personal one so I'll just give it to you.

Julian Hayes II

(1:07:14) Okay.

Dave Durand

(1:07:16) Do everything for Jesus and go to heaven because that's the only reason we're here. (1:07:19) That is the only thing that matters and I know that, I don't know how you feel about that on your show, Julian, but you asked me a direct personal question and that's my answer.

Julian Hayes II

(1:07:27) No, I loved it because that's who you genuinely are. (1:07:30) I think in a world, we need more authenticity like that. (1:07:32) We need more people actually sharing because a lot of times, especially leaders of prominent positions and stuff, they give an answer that they think people want to hear and not the answer that they actually really believe in.

(1:07:41) So I 100% appreciate it.

Dave Durand

(1:07:43) Well, amen to you for your strength, actually. (1:07:45) Julian, you have a lot more strength than most people do and I admire your courage.

Julian Hayes II

(1:07:50) Well, I appreciate that. (1:07:51) And lastly, where can listeners keep up with you? (1:07:55) There's a lot of things going on in your life.

(1:07:57) Where could they go?

Dave Durand

(1:07:59) So if they go to Durand On Demand, my YouTube channel is probably the best way to do that and I'm building and selling companies a lot. (1:08:08) So you'll see me on YouTube, be very consistent because my primary thing is not YouTube. (1:08:12) It's to build companies, lead them and then sell them.

(1:08:16) And one of the things that, and I write books and I do a lot of coaching too. (1:08:21) My primary business is not coaching, although I do really enjoy it. (1:08:26) I love helping people become dragon slayers and giants.

(1:08:29) I will have enough content on YouTube for you to go back and have it make sense. (1:08:35) And there's hundreds of videos anyway. (1:08:37) So even if you haven't been a part of it and a new one doesn't come out for a little while, kind of prepare my audience because I have to go dark for just a little bit while I'm getting these things done.

(1:08:46) And I'll probably be only posting maybe once every couple of weeks for a little while and go from there.

Julian Hayes II

(1:08:52) Yeah, you have tons of content. (1:08:54) They'll have the book as well to get when it comes out in February. (1:08:59) And so there's plenty of material there.

(1:09:00) I couldn't even go through it all as I was prepping and getting to learn about you more. (1:09:05) So there'll be plenty of stuff for them to do. (1:09:08) So I really appreciate this conversation.

(1:09:09) We probably could have did a Joe Rogan style and talked for three hours easily.

Dave Durand

(1:09:13) I think we could have. (1:09:14) I think that if you're ever in Southern Florida, we'll have to get together and have a beer.

Julian Hayes II

(1:09:18) Yeah, I was just in Miami a couple of weeks ago.

Dave Durand

(1:09:22) Oh yeah, where is home for you? (1:09:25) It's in Nashville. (1:09:26) Oh, Nashville, we're not far away.

(1:09:28) I've got partners in Nashville. (1:09:29) One of these days we're gonna have to catch up live.

Julian Hayes II

(1:09:31) Yeah, I'll be back in that area because I really enjoyed it. (1:09:34) So, and the weather's better. (1:09:35) So I'll be back.

Dave Durand

(1:09:36) Yeah, all right, awesome. (1:09:38) Thanks so much, Julian.

Julian Hayes II

(1:09:39) Thank you again. (1:09:40) And for listeners out there, stay awesome, be limitless and always go be the CEO of your health and your life. (1:09:44) Peace.