Creating a High Performance Life and Relationship with Chinazom and Ije Nwabueze
In a recent conversation, Julian Hayes II and the founders of Dreamcatchers Performance, Chinazom, and Ije Nwabueze, touched on various aspects of success, fulfillment, and navigating the uncertainties of life and business. Ultimately, the conversation centered around creating high performance and relationships. Below is a summary of the episode, along with the video episode and transcripts.
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The Importance of Sacrifice and Vision
Chinazom Nwabueze reflects on the concept of sacrifice, drawing parallels to his friend Sherman's notion that many desire success without being prepared to pay its price. He emphasizes the need for individuals to not only dream and envision their goals but also to understand and commit to the required sacrifices.
Prioritizing Amidst Multiple Options
Ije Nwabueze highlights the significance of opportunity cost in decision-making, especially in business transformation and strategy implementation. She stresses the need to prioritize effectively, acknowledging that focusing on multiple options simultaneously can lead to diluted efforts and sabotaged outcomes.
Staying True to Your Race
The conversation shifts to defining and staying true to one's unique path. Chinazom emphasizes the danger of catching up in others' races, leading to wasted energy and eventual disillusionment. Julian underscores the importance of aligning success with personal values and aspirations, cautioning against pursuing achievements that do not resonate with one's true desires.
Success: A Personal Journey
The participants share their evolving perspectives on success. Chinazom expresses a desire to make a positive impact on others' lives while maintaining bountiful joy in his family life. Ije emphasizes defining success based on personal fulfillment, positive impact, and continuous self-improvement.
Navigating Uncertainty in Business
The conversation explores strategies for handling business uncertainties, rapid changes, and curveballs. Chinazom draws parallels to whitewater rafting, advocating for a resilient attitude and quick problem-solving. Ije emphasized the importance of surrounding oneself with like-minded individuals and trusted advisors to navigate uncertainty effectively.
Prioritizing Well-being for High Performance
The conversation highlights the critical link between well-being and high performance. Chinazom stresses the need for intentional rest, recovery, and rejuvenation, using sports analogies to illustrate the importance of mental fitness. Ije emphasizes the role of self-care and emotional intelligence in sustaining long-term success.
Creating a Fulfilling Life and Career
The dialogue concludes with practical advice for creating a fulfilling and abundant life. Chinazom encourages men to prioritize emotional expression, self-care, and mental fitness. Ije offers similar advice to women, emphasizing self-awareness, boldness, and resilience in pursuing their goals.
Stay Connected with Dreamcatchers Performance
For those interested in exploring further, Chinazom and Ije invite listeners to visit Dreamcatchers Performance and connect with them on LinkedIn for valuable insights and complimentary coaching sessions. They also host a podcast, "Conversations on Mental Fitness," on Spotify and many other media outlets.
In Conclusion
The conversation between Julian Hayes II and Dreamcatchers Performance founders Chinazom and Ije Nwabueze offers invaluable insights into achieving success, navigating uncertainty, and prioritizing well-being in life and business. By staying true to one's vision, prioritizing self-care, and seeking guidance from trusted advisors, individuals can embark on a journey of fulfillment and abundance.
Connect with Chinazom and Ije Nwabueze
Website — https://www.dreamcatchersperformance.com/
Podcast— https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/real-talk-conversations-on-mental-fitness/id1691175715
Connect with Chinazom — https://www.linkedin.com/in/chinazomsunnynwabueze/
Connect with Ije — https://www.linkedin.com/in/ijeoma-jemie-nwabueze/
Transcript
Chinazom Nwabueze
(0:00) Like you have no cash flow, especially when I'll never forget trying to like packing all the stuff out of our house into a garage. (0:07) And that's like, let me get this straight. (0:09) You're leaving somewhere where you worked for 20 years and all your contacts are here.
(0:14) So if you wanted to get a job, this is the only place you can get a job. (0:17) I was packing it into the garage of my house to then go somewhere where I have no house. (0:23) I don't know when I'm going to work.
(0:25) So the logic, every time the logical brain came in, it was just like, what the fuck are you doing? (0:31) Like, literally, I'd be screaming like, and at some point, I've obviously never told EJ this at the time, but I was thinking, this is a stupid idea. (0:39) Let's call it off.
(0:40) Let's go. (0:41) But then I had to keep reminding myself why I was doing it.
Julian Hayes II
(0:49) Welcome to another episode of executive health and life. (0:52) I'm your host, Julian Hayes II. (0:53) Back at it again, as I always say, with not just one today, but two fascinating guests.
(0:58) I don't remember. (0:59) I think this is the second time I've done an episode with two people. (1:02) So I'm excited about that.
(1:03) I hope you are as well. (1:04) You should be. (1:05) We're going to talk about some awesome things.
(1:07) But my guest today is, I think I can speak for both of them. (1:12) And I think they're living the dream. (1:14) The dream can sometimes be a little terrifying, but it's also exciting.
(1:19) And as he said in one of his bios, it's a roller coaster. (1:23) And the roller coaster sometimes can last years. (1:27) But during that time of the roller coasters, there's going to be some highs, there's going to be some lows.
(1:31) But in that time, you're going to really find out about yourself. (1:35) And the universe is going to offer things to you that are totally unexpected to you. (1:40) And you're probably going to really have some things that come your way that you wouldn't expect.
(1:46) And the times you may feel like quitting. (1:50) We all have those. (1:52) But it's going to severely be outweighed by the times of being thankful of doing what you're doing because of the impact that you're making.
(2:03) So with that said, I'm speaking with the power couple here. (2:06) They didn't say they're a power couple. (2:07) I'm making this bio up on my own.
(2:09) I'm speaking with the power couple here, Chinazom and Ije Nwabueze. (2:14) How are you guys doing today?
Ije Nwabueze
(2:17) You know, with that kind of introduction, we are doing great.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(2:20) I love that introduction. (2:22) I'm feeling amazing. (2:23) Roller coaster, highs and lows.
(2:26) Just, yeah, I'm feeling very excited.
Julian Hayes II
(2:28) Awesome to hear. (2:29) Awesome to hear. (2:29) You know, we were talking beforehand.
(2:32) And before actually, you know, before I even do that, I like to always go back into the past. (2:38) And I want to say, when you guys were 11 years old, would you imagine, would we be surprised of what you're doing right now? (2:48) Will we see those clues at the 11-year-old version of you?
Ije Nwabueze
(2:53) Not for me. (2:54) I thought at 11, and you're going to laugh about this, but I was going to be, you know, be a managing director at Goldman Sachs. (3:00) That's what I thought.
Julian Hayes II
(3:02) That's a good job.
Ije Nwabueze
(3:03) They had just gone public. (3:06) And so they were in the news. (3:08) And I thought, you know, Wall Street, I saw trading places.
(3:11) But yeah, that's going to be me. (3:13) So no, I would never have thought I'd be living my dream the way that I'm living it right now.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(3:19) I'm trying to think the 11-year-old me and the early images coming to mind is school assembly in Nigeria and being told that Mike Tyson had just become world champion. (3:28) And thinking, I actually thought he was Nigerian. (3:31) His name was Tosin.
(3:33) Instead of Tyson, I was like, Mike Tosin, oh, a Nigerian guy. (3:38) I wasn't dreaming of becoming a heavyweight champion. (3:41) I think I wasn't dreaming of being in the US.
(3:43) I think I was dreaming of being in Nigeria. (3:47) I loved economics. (3:48) I didn't actually know what that kind of job that was going to get me.
(3:51) But I knew I didn't want to become a lawyer. (3:53) My dad was a lawyer. (3:54) And I was like, I don't want to be a lawyer.
(3:55) I just thought, yeah, too much reading and too much arguing. (3:59) I'd rather do something else. (4:01) So economics, heavyweight boxing, but instead, I'm a high performance leadership coach.
(4:08) So yeah, that's what I thought I was going to be doing.
Julian Hayes II
(4:12) You know, I will say also that being an attorney was my second choice before the medical stuff, because I like arguing. (4:20) I like a good debate. (4:21) It's just enjoyable, right?
(4:26) But it went out, obviously, for the medical thing. (4:29) But that was my second choice. (4:31) And I thought about being like maybe a defense attorney sounds fun.
(4:36) But then I was worried about, you know, sometimes, if like, if I have to defend the person that I really don't want to defend, right? (4:42) And then my ethics get called into it. (4:44) So I thought maybe I should be a prosecutor.
(4:47) Okay, yeah, prosecutor sounds kind of fun, because I feel like a prosecutor, you could be on the attack more.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(4:53) Well, being the son of a lawyer, I wasn't, I just kind of, he was always too good at arguing. (4:57) And I was like, I don't think I want to go into this profession. (5:00) And he always made you feel uneasy, whenever he started to like, question you.
(5:04) So I was like, no, this is not the career path for me.
Julian Hayes II
(5:08) Well, I would imagine then that it gives you, you have a pretty good ability then to reason and to conversate, because I'm pretty sure at the dinner table, he brought that to you.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(5:18) He did. (5:19) He made you see both sides. (5:21) You have to see both sides of the argument in your mouth.
(5:25) Otherwise, yeah, he would, he would really say, I learned to sit down and listen and make sure that I've got both sides of the argument before I open my mouth and say something. (5:34) So that it makes sense.
Julian Hayes II
(5:37) So I'm curious, how did you all how did you two meet? (5:40) Was it was it love at first sight?
Ije Nwabueze
(5:43) Was it? (5:44) Yeah, of course it was. (5:47) No, it was great.
(5:48) I mean, he was visiting, I had gone back home to Nigeria to work. (5:53) So I had been living there for a few years. (5:54) And then he was visiting.
(5:56) And I came for a dinner party at a family friend's house. (5:58) And that's where we met. (6:00) And it was awesome.
(6:01) And I thought, oh, my goodness, this person is really different. (6:03) Apparently, he thought, what's she doing here? (6:05) She doesn't belong here.
(6:08) We were both kind of like outside of, you know, what you would expect. (6:12) And they were great.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(6:14) Very strange that we grew up in the same area in Lagos, but not at the same time. (6:18) So I grew up there. (6:20) And then I moved to the UK.
(6:21) And then she was living there. (6:22) And then she was less. (6:24) And somehow the universe kind of brought us together.
(6:27) A family friend, like basically, she was going to visit a family friend, I was going to visit my mom. (6:32) And we met. (6:33) And then the next week, she was going to come to the UK to spend the whole week, which Yeah, I think that was the universe just setting us up.
(6:40) And then after that week, yeah, we're not.
Ije Nwabueze
(6:46) Oh, I think we lost him.
Julian Hayes II
(6:48) Yeah, I think we lost him. (6:49) But we'll keep going. (6:50) So.
(6:52) So the investment banker, so instead of Goldman Sachs, what would you lead to?
Ije Nwabueze
(7:00) Well, I actually started my career at Goldman Sachs. (7:03) So I saw that I started off that dream, you know, went to school in New York to Columbia, and then I, I studied economics, just like Chinazom did. (7:12) Obviously, he was in the UK, I was in New York.
(7:15) And I went to Wall Street, and I started working at Goldman Sachs. (7:18) And I thought, okay, I'm getting closer to my dream. (7:23) But ultimately, it just wasn't the right fit.
(7:27) You know, and you know, that whole process of you talked about that when you wanted to go to medical school, and then you kind of reflecting and saying, Does this really I want to put my ladder up against something and climb? (7:37) But is this? (7:38) Is this the right place to be putting my ladder up against and climbing?
(7:42) Do I want to get to that top? (7:43) And that's what it was for me. (7:45) So yeah.
Julian Hayes II
(7:47) And so Chinazom, you were also an investment banker, right?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(7:51) Yeah. (7:53) Back in the UK. (7:54) So not that work at Goldman's.
(7:56) I never worked at Goldman's. (7:57) I worked at JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank, and then Credit Suisse.
Julian Hayes II
(8:02) Okay. (8:02) How'd you like being an investment banker? (8:04) To me, it sounds like a fun job.
(8:05) I don't I didn't want to do it. (8:07) But it does sound fun.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(8:09) I wouldn't say fun. (8:11) It was, it was, it was definitely it was financially rewarding. (8:15) And it was interesting.
(8:17) And I did like the learning, like initially, the learning curve was quite steep. (8:21) And I was working with products called securitization. (8:23) So I remember like taking the this document and actually reading it and then working out what the cash flow analysis meant.
(8:29) So that part was I loved the learning part of it. (8:33) And then I also loved when you're in a meeting, you're responsible for something like, you're responsible for all the payments, all the calculations on this thing. (8:40) And when you got it, right, it was I loved that part of learning and being responsible for seeing something from end to end.
(8:47) That part was good. (8:49) The tight deadlines and pressure all the time was was not so much fun. (8:53) And it also tended to bring out the worst in other people.
Ije Nwabueze
(8:58) Yes, I agree with that. (9:00) It was really tough to be in that kind of fast, a fast moving high pressure environment all the time. (9:09) And I think, particularly for my class of folks, we came in, we started our careers on Wall Street, right after the credit crisis.
(9:16) So we came in, when things were especially difficult, and you know, banks were folding up, companies were folding up, like, everything seemed to be breaking down globally. (9:28) And it was a really tough time to come in, because it just kind of seems like you're at the bottom of a well, you keep looking up, and it's like, how do we get out of this? (9:34) So I think that added some additional pressures, but it was a great opportunity to really kind of learn what it means to cope in that kind of environment.
Julian Hayes II
(9:42) Yeah, so I'm going to fast forward a little bit. (9:44) And I want to go to kind of, I think we call it an inflection point. (9:50) And I so you're an investment banker, right?
(9:52) And you have this sports psychology itch. (9:56) And you're getting ready to relocate from the UK to the US. (10:01) She's six months pregnant, and both of you had no income streams lined up.
(10:06) So there's a lot of questions here. (10:08) The first one is, well, one, the nervousness, who is, were you nervous? (10:19) Or did you just feel like you had to do it?
(10:21) Because a lot of times people would, I like to think like when you're, there's logic, and there's emotion. (10:27) We want to balance the both of them. (10:29) But sometimes, as we get older, or as we start having more responsibilities, like maybe a family and different people like that, we really look at logic and let that emote and then that emotion also of the same scenario will hold us back from taking that type of leap.
(10:44) So I'm curious, what's the whole mind frame around that time?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(10:50) Well, I'm gonna get so that period, it was, that's when I learned about excitefied. (10:57) If I stopped and caught myself, the terrified bit will be like, I'm gonna have to swear because it's like, what? (11:04) Yeah, what are you doing?
(11:06) Like, you have no cash flow, especially when I'll never forget trying to like packing all the stuff out of our house into a garage. (11:12) And that's like, let me get this straight. (11:14) You're leaving somewhere where you work for 20 years and all your contacts are here.
(11:19) So if you wanted to get a job, this is the only place you can get a job. (11:22) I was packing it into the garage of my house to then go somewhere where I have no house. (11:29) I don't know when I'm gonna work.
(11:31) So the logic every time the logical brain came in, it was just like, What the fuck are you doing? (11:36) Like, literally, I'd be screaming, like, and at some point, I've obviously never told DJ this at the time. (11:42) But I was thinking, this is a stupid idea.
(11:44) Let's call it off. (11:45) Let's go. (11:46) But I had to keep reminding myself why I was doing it.
(11:51) And luckily, I'd left investment banking, probably, again, over a year, year and a half, I've been doing, and I've been saying that you're gonna have to trust your instinct, which was I had to switch off the logical brain, because I was like logical brain, you've had 20 years, you've led me as far as you want to lead me, it's time to start tapping into something else. (12:09) And I was 100% sure that this was the right thing to do. (12:13) And I think to try and calm the nervousness down, I was like, Okay, if it doesn't work out, you can come back, you know, what's the worst that can happen.
(12:21) So that kind of helped me, you know, deal with the nerves, but I'll never forget walking up to the plane. (12:28) I think that's when I caught sight of Ije, that she was actually six months pregnant, I knew she was six months pregnant. (12:34) But then watching her walk, I was like, I had to help up the steps.
(12:37) And I was like, as I was walking up the steps, like you were taking a your six month pregnant wife to somewhere you have no income, and you have no job and you have no house. (12:46) And that point, I wanted to just turn around and run back. (12:50) But we went up, and then a friend actually had arranged for us to go and sit in first class, which as a surprise.
(12:57) So as soon as we went up, they're like, are you the Nwabueze's? (13:00) And we said yes. (13:01) And then they led us first class and we were like shocked and amazed.
(13:04) And by that point, you have the champagne and you sit down I was blessed. (13:08) So the excited feeling was there. (13:10) I was beyond excitement.
(13:12) I've never felt the terrified feeling was also there. (13:16) I somehow was able to sit with the two and enjoy my campaign and sit there first class and think we can't we can't run out of the plane now.
Julian Hayes II
(13:25) So we're going now Ije, or how did you feel during this time?
Ije Nwabueze
(13:29) Oh, you know what? (13:32) It's amazing to hear him describing this, because it makes a lot of sense. (13:36) For me, I had made a crazy decision even before this crazy decision.
(13:43) So when I left my career on Wall Street, and moved back to Nigeria, to Lagos, three degrees above the equator, everybody thought I was crazy. (13:52) You know, I had gone to school in New York, I was working New York living there. (13:57) Again, I had been in the US for the most like the bulk of my life, right?
(14:01) I'd come over when I was really young. (14:03) So I didn't have any contacts. (14:05) And I'm a working professional, I didn't have a job lined up.
(14:08) It seemed really crazy. (14:10) And it was a little crazy, to be honest. (14:13) But you know, so I already kind of had a little practice being complete out of my comfort zone.
(14:17) I kind of describe it as the train is moving at a really fast pace. (14:21) And then you stick your head out the window, you know, there's nothing that's gonna in obstruction that's gonna hit your head. (14:26) You also know that you're gonna get that rapid wind coming at you and, you know, be a little bit dazzled.
(14:33) But there's also this like, fresh feeling that you, you know, just as an exhilaration that you feel, knowing that, okay, I'm choosing to do this, I'm still kind of safe, but I'm out of my comfort zone, I kind of felt that feeling before. (14:45) So I was familiar with that discomfort level. (14:48) This time, obviously, it's it's added pressure, because I'm pregnant, that was my first time, I'd never been pregnant before.
(14:55) And I didn't know, having the extra element how, you know, it's different from when you make decisions for yourself when you're in a family unit, especially if you're expecting that's a completely different ballgame. (15:05) So that added an extra element of fear. (15:08) But I kind of anchored myself on the vision, we did a lot of like, vision casting, like we had a whiteboard, we, we really tried, and we didn't know why we were choosing the things we were choosing for the vision, per se, right, we had that crazy situation where we had the whiteboard.
(15:24) And we had just chosen images, and words to kind of like bring out what was in each of our minds to create a joint vision as a unit. (15:32) And somehow we gravitated and put what was that type of tree that we put up blossoms, cherry blossoms, we put up a cherry blossom, I don't even know where we got the picture of the cherry blossom tree from I don't know that we had experienced it before. (15:46) It wasn't like we've said, this is really significant and symbolic of our relationship.
(15:50) Let's put this up. (15:51) But we turned up in an environment where we're in Washington, DC got cherry blossoms, people traveling from all over the country to come down and look at cherry blossoms every spring. (16:01) That's where we ended up.
(16:02) So I think a lot of it was just like tuning in spiritually, and and kind of trying to like, even if it doesn't make sense, just put it out there and see what happens. (16:12) But yeah, I agree. (16:12) I also felt that combination of like, excited.
(16:16) That's your word. (16:17) And it's very off, like excited, but terrified at the same time.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(16:20) It is so scary, the cherry blossoms then because we had that whiteboard in the middle of our flat every day. (16:27) And I was in the room. (16:28) And I remember looking at another time, we were not looking anywhere near Washington, DC, we were like on the West Coast, San Diego, San Francisco, LA.
(16:37) And a lot of sudden her brother invited us over and came on once we saw it, we're like, this is the place. (16:42) And then later on, when we're living here, he saw the he saw the cherry blossom and we're like, that is that's the freakiest thing. (16:50) But I do remember, just to talk about putting your head up the train.
(16:55) I do remember like, when I was on that plane, just the excitement was just so much because when I did sports psychology, I could kind of see, okay, my future is going to be really hard trying to try and get an apprenticeship, then go and do some more studying. (17:11) It didn't excite me at all. (17:13) And I was like, I left this career to do this to be excited.
(17:17) And all of a sudden on the plane, it was like, I don't know where my career could go in America. (17:21) And that was, it was scary, but it was very, very exhilarating, because it was like, there's no limits. (17:27) That was just like, I'll rather take this feeling and the terrified feeling was there, I'm going to take this feeling.
(17:34) But also, I learned a lot about communicating with your fears. (17:38) So like, I used to go for walks almost every day to kind of plan, you're about to become a dad for the first time, you're not going to have a job, like, I kind of let the fear in so that I could listen to and think, okay, what's real fear? (17:51) And what's actually when we get there, we'll sort it out.
(17:54) So that I feel really helped me to just be able to sit with the terrified, so that it's there. (18:00) And it's like, I'm not trying to fight your push your way, I've let you in, I'm listening to the information, useful information, I'll use and act on it. (18:08) But we're still, we're still gonna go.
Julian Hayes II
(18:10) Yeah, now there's I did, you know, right there. (18:14) No job, and then you're also having a kid on the way. (18:19) And just speaking from a man's perspective, real quick, we're supposed to protect and provide, that's what we're supposed to do.
(18:26) And a lot of times, as we take pride in that, if we can't do that, we, we start to feel a certain type of way. (18:32) So for men out there, who might be going through a transition like this, maybe, maybe they have a job, and maybe it's not paying enough, or maybe they want to make that leap. (18:42) But then, but they're also, they're going to have this moment of, oh, man, what is going on?
(18:49) I got all this, I got all this to lose, if this doesn't happen. (18:53) I don't, you know, and so you might even feel frozen in that moment. (18:56) Or you might start to feel down on yourself.
(18:58) So maybe it's another entrepreneur where they've been at this venture for a while now. (19:04) And as we all know, it's overnight success is not really overnight success. (19:09) They're overnight success, because you're now just seeing them, and it seems overnight, but I guarantee you, they've been working a lot in the dark that we couldn't see.
(19:18) So to wrap this, this question up, um, what would you say to men out there that are maybe in one of those stages, they want to make the leap, or they've already made the leap. (19:27) And now it's a little tough. (19:29) And so for their ego as a man, the providing and protecting does not feel so strong now.
(19:35) And so their value is starting to feel a little low as well.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(19:39) I'm not gonna lie, like when I took all those walks, a lot of those fears was the ego telling me you're supposed to be the provider for 20 years, since I left college was working so that when I go to the cashpoint, there's money there. (19:52) I always there was an income coming in. (19:54) So the fear to think that, wow, that's, that's gonna go.
(19:59) So it's like, what does it mean if I'm not bringing any income? (20:03) And I had to live without fear. (20:04) But the reality is different from when you're going through it, like when you're actually living through it, the job doesn't come for three months, the job doesn't come for six months, and then you get to nine months, you do really start to question your identity, your ego really comes out.
(20:18) And I'm not gonna lie, it was it was really tough. (20:22) I went for many long runs where you'd get so upset, you get so down, you question yourself, and you have to keep picking yourself back up to kind of, alright, you have to find your value from somewhere else. (20:34) And that was the one thing.
(20:36) Maybe COVID was helpful, where I really got to spend that time with my son. (20:40) And I was like, okay, my value is not going to come from being the provider or getting the job, it's going to come from putting my love somewhere else. (20:48) And like you said, doing the work in the dark.
(20:51) So I was like, you said this to yourself back then, you still you have to follow it through. (20:56) So if you believe it, you just have to keep pushing, you have to keep pushing. (21:00) And the way this thing was, when I actually got my first job, I was about to take a try and go back to work for Amazon, and I'm trying to apply to go back to do finance, basically go back to corporate.
(21:13) And the recruiter at the time, he like spent an hour and a half on the phone telling me that you don't want to do this, you don't want to get really upset thinking, does he think I can't do the job? (21:22) Then my ego came in is like, of course, I can do that. (21:24) And he just he literally spent an hour and a half telling me you've come this far, you've done all this.
(21:29) And then he said, take the weekend, think about it. (21:32) If you want to apply for the job Monday, let me know. (21:35) I love the weekend.
(21:36) I remember going on many long runs. (21:38) And I remember just thinking, he was so right, like spirit somehow he spoke to my spirit. (21:42) And I was like, I've come this far.
(21:45) No, we're not we're going to keep going. (21:47) And then probably less than two weeks later, less than a month later, I got my first job as a coach. (21:52) So that still sticks with me.
(21:55) And what's that saying before the light, the longest hour of the night? (22:00) Because at that point, I was probably a breaking point, close to breaking point. (22:04) And I had to just think just keep going a bit longer.
Julian Hayes II
(22:07) I do think sometimes with it feels a little cliche. (22:10) But sometimes I do feel like when you really start to feel broken down, that that usually means that you're really close to something. (22:20) But it's just like, really tough in that moment.
(22:23) It's almost like a test. (22:24) Maybe it's like a test from the universe or something that is just really testing you right now to see. (22:29) Because I think I think we've all had some of those moments, those inflection moments of where it's like, I was just ready to call it a quit.
(22:37) I was getting ready to apply. (22:39) Or like, I think I've applied at times for like career jobs. (22:43) And I never even had a career job.
(22:45) And I was like, I don't even know how to make a resume. (22:47) But I'll try to make a resume. (22:48) And and I send them off.
(22:51) I was like, I think I'm qualified for it. (22:53) Right? (22:53) And then you get no answers.
(22:55) And you send in a bunch of me like, okay, forget this. (22:57) This is just a sign that no, it's a saying stick it through. (23:01) And I'll just go figure out something else to help with this while I'm building this up.
(23:07) So I think we all had those weird stories and everything. (23:11) So during this time, what would you also suggest to couples in terms of this to sometimes, when you see couples break up, a lot of times it's due to finances is due to things like that. (23:24) And when you're making this kind of transitional moment, I mean, this is a pretty it's a moment where you could break apart.
(23:32) And it seems like you guys actually came closer. (23:34) So what do you what have you guys done to kind of make that unity even stronger?
Ije Nwabueze
(23:40) That's a powerful one, Julian, you're really gonna be sharing some nuggets with your audience. (23:46) We're not going to bill you for this hour here. (23:49) No, no, no.
(23:50) But I mean, to be honest with you, one thing that I think you'll agree with me that we learned was there are pros and cons to every approach, right? (24:03) So when you're doing something like what we did, where we just kind of held hands and jumped out at the same time, right? (24:11) Like, there's no one kind of standing back with a net to catch the other person like, so you're facing your demons at the same time, like you're both dealing with uncertainty at the same time, you're both excited to fight.
(24:23) That's positive. (24:24) And that can also be really challenging, right? (24:27) On the positive side, you're having a similar experience, right?
(24:30) So when I'm talking to you about what I'm feeling, you're like, yeah, I was like, you know, like, I'll be telling him, like, you know, I started having these thoughts. (24:39) And like, it got really challenging for the moment. (24:41) He was like, yeah, let me tell you what I experienced this morning.
(24:45) So we're on the same page. (24:46) And there's that sense of connectedness, which you don't feel when you're on different paths, because you feel lonely, right? (24:54) So there was definitely this connection and this sense of connectedness that helped to give you resolve, you knew you weren't alone, you understood truly, not because you were trying to understand, but because you were experiencing it yourself, what the other person was going through.
(25:07) So that's one. (25:09) But on the flip side, it means that you can't help your partner as much as you want to, because you still need to help yourself. (25:15) So, you know, for those of us that are in relationships where, you know, one value that I have as, you know, as a wife, and as a friend is, hey, I've got your back, like, I'm always going to have your back, you know, that means I need to take ownership for my own stuff and be really strong, and understand what my gifts are, what my blind spots are, and keep working on it, right?
(25:37) So, so that together, we can plug up each other's gaps and be really super strong. (25:41) But what happens when you're going through a really tough time yourself, and your spouse or your partner is going through a tough time is, you got very little to give, right? (25:51) Because you're figuring things out, you're not standing on solid ground, you're out soaring through the skies as well.
(25:58) So understanding that and coming to terms with that, understanding what that means, (26:03) and finding other ways to kind of reimagine what it means to be together or what it means to add (26:09) value to that unit, taking care of yourself, like, those are all things that are on that (26:13) other side of the coin, where it's like, you have to recognize that you can't pretend that you can (26:18) be like have that person's back to the same degree, maybe, but maybe you can have it in a (26:23) different way.
(26:24) Maybe you just tuning into yourself and being forthcoming about what you're experiencing is still creating that, that that sense of unity and strength. (26:33) So that's the one thing I would say about that, for me that I took away.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(26:38) Definitely, when she said, like, you were learning about each other's demons at the same time, that was so true, because the challenges were coming just fast and thick at the same time becoming parents, no job trying to get a job. (26:51) And one thing I definitely remember was we we had to communicate like, when I say communicate, I don't mean just having a talk and then the other person, like, literally, at the deepest level, you had to share your rawest emotion. (27:03) And somehow we were able to create space for that.
(27:05) And that's where I think, as a man, it's very hard to show that weakness to to most men will struggle to do that. (27:12) But I had no other option, because I knew that I had to communicate everything that was going on. (27:18) Otherwise, she's just not going to understand.
(27:20) And one thing I definitely think he did was she did not allow me to not communicate. (27:25) Even if I wanted to be quiet or go off and go for a run, she would keep coming back until in a loving way until we like, put it out in open. (27:34) And then, you know, you have conversations where you shout, you cry, whatever, but you still have to communicate, you still have to get on the same page.
(27:42) And it's crazy that it did make us stronger. (27:45) Once we got through that, you really learned that you were on the same team. (27:50) I think people kind of say it, but when you're working on different things, and you're this one's traveling here, it's hard to really realize where especially when you're in the pandemic, just us and the kid, you were on the same team, you were the only people each other had.
(28:03) And it was also hard to realize, at that point, I can't help you, you can't help me. (28:09) And you kind of think, oh, you're supposed to be in a marriage, you're supposed to have each other's back. (28:14) But you realize that just being there together, getting through your own stuff, meant that you were still doing it together.
(28:20) And that was that was very powerful for me, definitely. (28:23) And one thing I definitely remember was, at no point when I was going through the Ije ever show any doubt, like I even had doubt from her family members, where are you stupid? (28:34) Are you sure this is this is just a silly idea.
(28:36) But she never ever showed any doubt. (28:38) I don't know, because I opted to that. (28:40) I don't know how she was not afraid.
(28:42) But she never, she never wavered in the belief. (28:45) And that just kept me pushing on and pushing on. (28:47) And it's true.
(28:48) What you say is like, it's almost like a test. (28:50) It's almost like I feel the universe has to completely strip you of your identity, the old identity, and the other ego has to die before you can come up with a new one. (29:00) So she was always there at that test, just going, Yeah, I believe in you.
(29:04) Go do what you need to do. (29:06) I believe in you can do it. (29:07) So every time I could, when I got my ass handed to me, I could pick back up and go, Alright, this is my this is what my instinct saying keep going.
(29:14) And that's one thing I would definitely say for men, when you're doing this is get comfortable with no man, I call it no man's land. (29:20) There's that bit where it's just vast emptiness, you can't see which direction you're supposed to go. (29:25) And that's where you really have to trust your instincts in there.
(29:28) If it says this is where we're going, keep going, and just keep going and knowing that it's going to guide you to the right place.
Julian Hayes II
(29:34) Yeah, and it's almost when you mentioned no man's land, it's it's almost that you're so far from where you used to be, or the finish line that you're not going to go back. (29:43) But then you still feel so far from the quote unquote, finish line that you can't go there, right? (29:48) So you're just in the middle, like, Well, I'm already too far to go back and just not stop and to stop.
(29:54) So I guess I'll just keep going. (29:56) But then it's painful to keep going. (29:57) So you're just like, Oh, my God.
(29:58) So I totally, totally agree with that. (30:02) And I love hearing that. (30:03) And I think that's really valuable for listeners to hear out there.
(30:06) And you know, all of this, I hear the word trust, is that, you know, trust was fully developed, because I think a lot of times, even with people's partners, that it's true, it's hard for them probably to truly, truly open up, people say, Oh, I'm opening up, but are you truly, truly opening up? (30:26) And I think it's maybe still, people have fear of judgment, or what are you going to think of me? (30:32) Are you going to doubt me?
(30:33) I know, for men, like, like you said, we don't want our capabilities and abilities to be doubted by the person we love the most, you know, that's, that's probably harmful. (30:43) And probably for women, there's different categories as well. (30:47) So do you think it was, how did you all build such a strong trust up?
(30:53) Was it? (30:54) You mentioned, I think, at the very beginning about having a vision for the family and any unit as well? (31:00) Is that something that you did at the very beginning, that you think really helped throughout this whole process?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(31:07) Yeah, it was very strange. (31:09) I feel early on in our marriage, the universe just started throwing challenges at us. (31:13) And I think even from the start, Ije had to leave her job, leave her family in Nigeria and come to me in London in the cold. (31:20) So that was already, we had to start building that trust early on, because we were just getting those challenges coming in. (31:27) And I do remember earlier in our marriage, there was also family issues that were happening that were impacting us. (31:33) And I remember we were having a lot of arguments early on as we're trying to get to learn each other while we're trying to build that trust.
(31:40) I remember sitting down and getting a piece of paper and drawing this box and saying, this is our family unit. (31:46) And I drew some stick figures in there to represent us. (31:49) And I was like, this unit, like, everything from the outside, everything in this unit, we have to build the trust where we have each other's back, no matter what.
(31:58) And I think I was trying to say, like, our wider family unit is our wider family unit. (32:02) But in this unit, we've got to stay together. (32:04) And that, I think that was the kind of, I don't know if Ije would say that was the foundation of what our family unit means. (32:12) And I think we've just grown stronger and stronger where it doesn't matter if she's talking to her family or I'm talking to my family. (32:18) It's like, we trust each other. (32:19) We know that our unit is the first thing that comes first.
(32:23) And we have to have each other's back, no matter what, in any situation.
Ije Nwabueze
(32:27) 100. (32:28) I remember that. (32:29) I think we put that up in our house in London.
(32:31) We framed it. (32:33) I don't know what happened when we moved to the U.S., what happened to our foundation. (32:40) We've gone beyond the need to see it visibly.
(32:45) It's, like, etched in here. (32:46) But it really was, like, what he did was so powerful. (32:49) Because I had never experienced that before.
(32:52) And I had never seen it done before. (32:54) Right? (32:54) And so I didn't know anything about that.
(32:56) And he kind of created this force field. (32:58) And he visually mapped it out. (33:01) So it made it really clear that, okay, we have this thing that we're creating together.
(33:08) And it is impenetrable. (33:11) Like, nothing can enter this space that we do not decide together is for this space and serves us. (33:19) And then what does that mean in practice?
(33:23) Boundaries. (33:24) What are the boundaries that form the four walls of this impenetrable sacred space that we're co-creating? (33:33) And what do those boundaries mean for how we engage with the larger world?
(33:38) And that was really a game changer for how we think, how we behave. (33:44) Like, everything flowed from there, really. (33:46) I'll be honest.
(33:48) And recognizing that that is a muscle. (33:52) You have to exercise the muscle on an ongoing basis. (33:56) Again, or it atrophies.
(33:57) Like with everything else in life. (33:59) Like, you know, whatever vision that you have and whatever framework you set up around it, you have to practice reinforcing that and maintaining that on an ongoing basis. (34:10) And you talked about trust.
(34:11) Trust. (34:12) Folks think of it as almost like this, like, destination point. (34:16) Like, you reach it, we've got it.
(34:17) Like, you build it and you reinforce it every moment you have an opportunity to reinforce it. (34:24) Or you have an opportunity to tear it down. (34:26) So, seeing it as this continuous thing that you're building and growing is so important so that you understand that it evolves.
(34:36) Just like the other person is evolving. (34:39) Trust, what it means for you in this stage of your journey together might mean something completely different in another stage, right? (34:46) Or this trigger that's your personal trigger might cause you to react in a different way, which might have an impact on this trust.
(34:53) Like, it's really acknowledging that this is constantly evolving. (34:56) It's a living, breathing thing, your relationship with trust. (35:00) And treating it like that and practicing how to build that up and reinforce it every day is so important.
(35:06) Like, that was something that I really recognized. (35:08) Because it also gives you space to have a little bit of grace, right? (35:10) Because sometimes you're going to feel like you took a step backwards.
(35:14) Like, okay, I still have an opportunity to rebuild that again.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(35:18) Yeah, I think trust has to come from boundaries. (35:22) And I think early on in my marriage issues with my family, I realized I didn't have any boundaries. (35:28) So, I overcorrected.
(35:29) So, everything was like, no. (35:31) Like, if it's going to impact that, no. (35:35) And I think trust comes from when you see the other partner, how far are they willing to go to protect that unit?
(35:42) So, because people can say, oh, okay, yes, I'll have your back, da-da-da. (35:45) But when the shit actually hits the fan, how far are you going to go to do that? (35:50) And then that's what builds the trust is like, this is how much this thing is a priority to me, and this is how much I'm going to stand for it.
(35:58) So, that's what I really learned is like, you have to police your boundaries. (36:02) And if you don't police your boundaries, you're a human being, so you can make mistakes. (36:07) But you still have an opportunity to say, that's the top of mind, I'm still going to do better.
(36:11) Because that's what builds the trust. (36:13) And you can go through those situations and enforce it.
Ije Nwabueze
(36:17) Yeah. (36:17) I think one last thing I just want to make on this point is, there's this balancing act between, like, being there for each other in terms of, like, raising awareness of, like, hey, I noticed this might be a blind spot for you. (36:29) Like, are you aware that, like, when this, whenever you have a conversation about this, you tend to kind of then react like that.
(36:37) Like, so there's that role, right, that you kind of play where you kind of hold up a mirror for each other, but not in an obnoxious, ridiculous way. (36:45) But just, like, helping to raise awareness by sharing your observation, right? (36:50) Hey, have you noticed that when this happens, you respond like this?
(36:55) What does that mean for you? (36:57) Like, what's the significance of that for you? (37:00) And using that as an opportunity to deepen your understanding.
(37:02) But on the flip side, that's why I say it's a balancing act. (37:05) The person, the other person has the responsibility of working on their own shit, okay? (37:12) Like, we can't say, oh, because you're there to shine a mirror on me and raise my awareness on my blind spots and kind of cover for me, I'm just going to go la la la and go through life.
(37:23) Like, that's my responsibility. (37:25) That's the second, so the other person raising your awareness is a second line of defense. (37:28) You have to keep working on your stuff.
(37:31) So, but if you have an understanding of a delicate dance and a delicate balance, then that can work, you know? (37:38) But if you have one piece without the other, in my view, in my experience, it doesn't work as well.
Julian Hayes II
(37:47) Absolutely. (37:47) I'm going to transition briefly a little bit, which we'll still touch, stay on this subject a little bit. (37:53) But I guess a random question also is, Dreamcatcher.
(37:59) So, why the Dreamcatcher? (38:00) What's the origin of that name?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(38:03) That's a good, you're asking some really good questions today. (38:06) So, why the Dreamcatcher? (38:10) Because when I was starting the company and Ida was kind of, she was asking me that it's got to come from, it's basically got to tap into your spirit.
(38:19) And so, I went through this exercise of writing, what do I want to help people do? (38:22) And it sounds very corporate. (38:25) So, I started just visualizing, what am I seeing people doing?
(38:30) And then, it was firstly, it was making them happy, but it wasn't, then I realized it wasn't just happy. (38:36) It was like, I feel like people have so much potential, so much potential if we just learn how to use this. (38:42) And then that's why I thought your dreams, like literally on this earth, you can catch your dreams if you learn how to use your mental side, how to work on the inner part.
(38:51) And so, I'd never heard of a Dreamcatcher. (38:54) I was looking for images. (38:56) Again, I think similar when we did that vision board, I was looking for images and then I saw this image and then Ida told me that it's a Dreamcatcher.
(39:03) And then I was like, that's the image that came into my vision. (39:06) So, I just went with it. (39:08) And then the performance was, I was sports psychology, performance psychology.
(39:12) So, I was like, Dreamcatcher's performance. (39:14) Mm-hmm.
Julian Hayes II
(39:15) I always love hearing the origin stories of names and everything. (39:20) So, yeah. (39:21) So, most of the time with clients, they're entrepreneurs and CEOs and a big thing with them is going to be energy, right?
(39:29) And your book, which is, your book's called Real Talk. (39:33) And there's an image in the back for people who are, will be able to watch it. (39:36) And that's the cover.
(39:38) We talked about the personal energy tank and some of the inner work. (39:43) And what are, in your opinions, what are some of the most common things that you've seen a lot of times that are depleting us of our energy?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(39:55) Baby, do you want to go first?
Ije Nwabueze
(39:59) Well, you know, I mean, just when he said it, a long laundry list came to mind.
Julian Hayes II
(40:05) You want to say, let's- We won't give them the, we won't give them everything because they need to reach out to you all. (40:13) So, let's say in today's current climate. (40:15) So, let's say it's 2024.
(40:17) We are littered with distractions. (40:20) It is a political season here. (40:22) No matter what side you're on, it's going to be distractions abound.
(40:26) Economy is good, depending on who you're talking to. (40:29) Economy's bad, depending on who you're talking to. (40:31) So, there's so many distractions and all this stuff going on.
(40:33) So, let's go with that. (40:35) Let's go with that worldview. (40:36) Yeah.
Ije Nwabueze
(40:37) I mean, that's our reality. (40:39) I would start there, right? (40:41) Is that disconnect between your reality in any given moment and what you wish it could be.
(40:48) Like, that is a major drainer from an energy perspective because you kind of just get locked in this battle with yourself about how you wish it could be different. (40:59) So, that's one that gets me. (41:02) And the second one is just the sheer pace at which things are coming at you.
(41:07) Just trying to corral and to kind of navigate and you just kind of always feel like you're always behind and you're upset about the fact that you're always behind or that things are coming at this kind of rapid pace and you feel like you can't press pause. (41:26) Just that feeling of powerlessness is another great energy drainer that I have experienced and seen through our work.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(41:35) Yeah. (41:35) I think in the backdrop of that is just because I use this system of like the things that take energy. (41:42) And usually, the things that take your energy, work, family commitments, basically, so many other projects that you're working on.
(41:51) It's usually from a lack of boundaries where work takes all your time. (41:57) The ability to not say no to things is what will constantly keep taking your energy. (42:03) And with the phone as well, your mind is always on autopilot.
(42:08) You're always thinking about this or looking at what somebody else is doing. (42:11) And you're never ever calm to actually think, what do I need to take care of myself first? (42:17) So, I think if you're never in that calm state, you don't even realize that the energy is just being taken out of you.
(42:22) And if you don't take care of yourself first, it's always going to keep draining because you're just never in the right mindset to even think, okay, hold on a minute. (42:31) What's going on? (42:31) Why am I saying yes to this?
(42:32) Why am I working till 10 o'clock or whatever? (42:35) Why am I comparing to this person on social media? (42:38) Why am I watching the news and now worried what's happening in somewhere 10,000 miles away from me that's now making me depressed and anxious?
(42:46) So, I think that's, yeah.
Ije Nwabueze
(42:48) I do want to add though, like, for some people working till 10 o'clock on something they're passionate about lifts their energy. (42:54) I think the point that we're trying to make is what we always say in our practice is the tuning in process, right? (43:03) Because something that is energizing for you might be draining for somebody else.
(43:07) If it energizes you, great. (43:09) It's just raising your own awareness about how am I responding to things, right? (43:15) It's like, even if you thought this is something that you want to do or it's good for you, if you're tuning in and it's not working for you, it's not working for you.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(43:23) No, great point, Ije. (43:24) Because when I work with people where well-being can look different for so many people and some people your work energizes you, especially when you have a great idea and you just want to run with it. (43:35) But it's doing it from a place where you're tuning in, not just autopilot where you feel the competition can't beat me.
(43:42) I need to beat the competition. (43:44) So, you're just working back to back every night and it's not from that place.
Julian Hayes II
(43:48) Yeah. (43:48) And that's why I think something like the CliftonStrengths 34 CliftonStrengths Finder, I think it's like 34 CliftonStrengths something like that. (43:57) It's a CliftonShrints Finder.
(43:59) That's a very good thing, I think, for people to take to really learn their psychology and like how they work, what drives them, what's not. (44:07) And it's 34 different categories. (44:09) For me, some of my top ones were competition.
(44:15) I forgot the other one. (44:17) Competition was a big one. (44:19) But there's also a downside to that and it reminds me of that.
(44:24) So, for me, I like to compete, but the dark side of that is comparison. (44:29) And so, I start to compare and get in that a lot. (44:32) So, I had to really start being mindful of that.
(44:34) Because as we all know, when you start comparing, there's always someone probably faster. (44:38) There's always another company that just IPO'd something, or they're growing, or they had 600% gains on this stock or crypto. (44:46) And you're like, man, I'm not smart enough.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(44:49) It steals your joy all the time. (44:51) No matter what you do, as soon as you do it, you're like, oh, somebody else has done something better.
Julian Hayes II
(44:56) Yeah. (44:56) So, it's hard. (44:59) And I think a lot of entrepreneurs now, we can see this because you can go online and you can think, oh, this person's building this size company.
(45:06) This must be what success means. (45:08) And now, he's, like you said, he's working at 10pm because he saw this other entrepreneur do it. (45:14) But this other entrepreneur is trying to build a giant, giant corporation.
(45:19) Whereas maybe this one guy, he just wanted a nice small business that was a little more balanced. (45:24) But now he's running someone else's race. (45:27) Whereas the other guy enjoys the race he's running.
(45:29) This guy does not enjoy his race. (45:31) And I think that's where it starts to dilute and gets into the relationships and all this other stuff. (45:38) So, for me, I had to really be mindful and really take some time away and disconnect and figure out what do you really want to build?
(45:52) What do you really want to develop and put out into the world? (45:55) And are you willing to pay the cost for that? (46:00) Because I think I saw somewhere it says you can either increase your sacrifice or reduce your demand.
(46:06) I think it's something like that. (46:08) Or reduce desire. (46:10) Increase sacrifice or reduce desire.
(46:12) In terms of if you have big dreams, you might have to make a few more sacrifices.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(46:18) This is reminding me of Sherman. (46:21) Sherman came up with this, where a lot of people want something, but they're not willing to pay the cost for it. (46:28) It did make me think that, yeah, while you're dreaming and while you're visioning, you also need to actually say, okay, what's required?
(46:35) Am I willing to do that?
Ije Nwabueze
(46:37) Yeah. (46:37) I mean, speaking of cost, it's so funny. (46:39) Because one thing that is a hallmark to my training and my work kind of helping companies do business transformation, strategy and implementation work is opportunity cost.
(46:51) And I talk about this. (46:53) It's like you have to understand that if you are looking, you're weighing up more than one option, let's even say you pair it down to two, and you're focusing, you're trying to focus on both at the same time, it's costing you both. (47:07) So you really have to understand if you're pulling from the same resources, which as an individual is your time, your energy, maybe your funds, and you're trying to do them at the exact same time in the same timeframe, you're sabotaging your efforts across both.
(47:22) You do have to prioritize. (47:24) And it's so hard for us to acknowledge that. (47:26) You have to intentionally say, yes, these are both important, but A outranks B because of why. (47:32) That why is intrinsically linked to who you are and how you see the world. (47:37) Otherwise, it's never going to make sense.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(47:40) And I think what you just said, Julian, is so important, is that you need to understand what your own race is. (47:46) Because with the phone, it's so easy to every time you go on LinkedIn or Instagram or something, you see other people's race. (47:54) And if you don't have some way of carving out time to be mindful, I guarantee you, you'll be running somebody else's race, because you're like, oh, I need to just do this, I need to do that.
(48:04) And that's just the worst thing, because you're not even running your race, and you're expending energy. (48:10) And then when you get there, you're like, oh, damn, this is not making sense.
Julian Hayes II
(48:16) Yeah, I think the worst thing is to spend years doing something, and then you get there, and you're like, this is not even what I really wanted. (48:22) Or it becomes a nightmare. (48:24) So for somebody who builds a giant, successful company, and they're like, I didn't want this.
(48:30) I didn't want, you know, and now you have all these employees, and the thing you want to do is downsize. (48:35) And then that means other people, now you got to let go of other people, and all this kind of stuff. (48:39) So it's a very slippery slope to find motivation, inspiration, but then also make sure to still stay in your own lane, and keep your own race going.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(48:50) I saw this saying, actually, success, when it's not on your own terms, it's not really success. (48:56) You have to keep always thinking, what is my race? (48:59) What is it I want to do?
(49:00) Before you get caught up with the waves that just carry away, and then you end up with this big corporation, and become miserable.
Ije Nwabueze
(49:08) And on that point on success, defining success for yourself, because that's always where we start with our coaching work. (49:13) It's not just how does it look? (49:15) How does it feel?
(49:17) How do you, how do you, how do you want to feel when you reach whatever that goal is? (49:21) Because that's going to keep you in check as well. (49:23) Right?
(49:24) So those two elements, because you can focus on all the bells and whistles, but if you're not tuning in as well, there's that disconnect.
Julian Hayes II
(49:31) Yeah. (49:32) And usually when we're going after whether it's a big health goal, or big business goal, we're usually going after some type of feeling at the end of the day. (49:39) But it's usually, it comes down to some type of feeling.
(49:42) So, you know, speaking of success, I'm curious, what does success mean to you all? (49:46) And each of your own versions of success?
Ije Nwabueze
(49:51) That's a good question. (49:52) You want to go first, baby?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(49:53) I was gonna wait for you to go first. (49:57) I'll go first. (49:58) For me, that is a very good question, because I realized that it keeps changing.
(50:03) It keeps changing, changing. (50:07) It was always this thing I always had in my, like, I always believed that wellbeing was linked to performance. (50:12) And I think success for me would be to do something that has an impact that makes other people believe that and start to carve out the way they live their life, the way they work, the way they interact with their family.
(50:26) If I could make that impact, that would be huge for me, because it would just be a better world where, because I believe it wholeheartedly. (50:34) So if I could do that in some shape or form, I would feel like that was success. (50:39) I don't exactly know whether it's that, at the moment, it's like maybe working with companies that would do that, writing more books or something, but just to have that impact that across the board, people start to act and live that way and create workspace like that.
(50:56) But also, but big pivoting as well for me is family life. (51:01) I want to have that impact, but it has to be with what I call bountiful joy. (51:06) So bountiful joy is in my family life.
(51:08) When I look at my kids, when I come into my house, I just feel that joy all around. (51:12) And that means that I'm present, I'm there, my kids and my wife, everybody can feel that joy around. (51:19) So the two have to live together for me.
Ije Nwabueze
(51:22) Yeah, I agree. (51:24) I totally agree with that vision of having folks reimagine how they think about going through this world of well-being at the center. (51:35) What does that look and feel like?
(51:36) You don't have to choose one or the other. (51:38) You don't have to sacrifice your well-being just to be successful. (51:42) You can have them both.
(51:45) So I totally agree with that mission and I'm dedicated to that as well. (51:49) I think in addition for me, it's being able to use all my gifts, my strengths, all my superpowers, using them to help inspire that positive change. (52:02) So I feel so fulfilled when the work that we're doing together and all of the great impact we get to have.
(52:09) And then I think the last thing I would definitely say is, yeah, just that personal sense of fulfillment that I'm on a journey and I'm working on being a better version of myself and knowing myself truly. (52:24) And no one can take that away from me. (52:27) So that's a huge part of how I think of success.
(52:30) And it allows me to show up in a more powerful way in all the spaces in my life.
Julian Hayes II
(52:34) I like those. (52:35) I like both of those. (52:36) Very, yeah.
(52:38) A lot. (52:38) Very nourishing right there. (52:39) Nourishing answers.
(52:42) Yeah. (52:43) So one of the last things that's kind of getting ready to start winding down is a little bit touching a little more on uncertainty. (52:50) And this is a season that's going to be uncertain for a lot of people.
(52:55) During the pandemic and everything, you would hear people say that doing business is easier, right? (53:00) Because people were just spending and everything. (53:03) Whereas people are a little more conscious of that now.
(53:05) The macro environment has definitely changed now compared to a few years ago. (53:11) How are you all kind of advising your clients and everything to handle uncertainty?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(53:22) You're asking such great questions, really. (53:24) Because we were literally just talking about this yesterday. (53:27) And something that's coming up in my coaching practice is I'm seeing people after they've been promoted or they've gone to new roles, it feels like whitewater rafting.
(53:37) The change is just coming rapidly. (53:40) Curveball's coming at them. (53:43) Three, four months in, they still feel like the ground's going to be pulled from underneath them.
(53:47) And a big part I'm seeing is just the way your attitude. (53:51) And this really came to me when we went back to Nigeria. (53:55) When we went back to Nigeria, we had to go back to the eastern part where we're from.
(53:59) When you get to Nigeria, it's like you come up with your plan. (54:01) So you have your plan A, B, C, D. (54:03) Before you even get there, they all go out the window.
(54:06) And then you've got to come up with another four sets of plans. (54:08) And then they all go out the window. (54:10) And then you've got to come up.
(54:11) But what I always love is the people, I remember the people we were with, and as we're having to problem-solve in the moment, their attitude was like, they'd laugh about it, almost expecting it was going to happen, and just quickly move on to start problem-solving. (54:24) So I link it to whitewater rafting. (54:27) When you're whitewater rafting, the currents are coming at you, whether you like it or not.
(54:32) Your boat is going to capsize, whether you like it or not. (54:35) You can struggle and start screaming. (54:37) You're just going to make it worse.
(54:39) So when you capsize, you just relax. (54:41) It's just water. (54:42) You come back up, and then you keep going.
(54:44) So just changing your attitude to expect the curveballs, to expect that you're going to flip over. (54:51) And it's only going to be temporary. (54:53) Problem-solve quickly, come out of it.
(54:55) So just keep making the decisions. (54:57) Keep moving.
Ije Nwabueze
(54:59) I love that. (55:00) Yeah. (55:01) And in addition to that, I would say, you know, know what your, like, the fundamentals, the cornerstone of your, like, worldview is, and try and surround yourself with people who share a similar worldview in terms of, like, the things that matter most to you.
(55:18) And I'm not saying diversity isn't great. (55:20) It's great. (55:21) But I'm talking about, like, if the, if trust is really important to you, for the relationships, for when you're engaging, like, try and do things with people who value that as well, who are going to uphold that.
(55:35) Because it just makes dealing with uncertainty, which most times you can't calculate what you're going to win or lose. (55:42) Like, this isn't like, we talked about, it's not like risk, where you can sit down, and there are all these parameters, and you can kind of simulate and come up. (55:49) Uncertainty is a wild card, you know, completely unpredictable.
(55:53) You cannot forecast it. (55:55) And so in that environment, you want to know that, okay, I am in an environment, I've created an environment of like-minded people for the things that matter the most, right? (56:03) I'm not talking difference in perspective and view values.
(56:06) Like, if you even start there, you have a better chance of being able to navigate the situation with your sanity intact.
Julian Hayes II
(56:17) Yeah, it's a really good point. (56:20) So now, these are kind of the final questions. (56:23) These are kind of just random questions.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(56:26) Something just popped into my head.
Julian Hayes II
(56:28) Absolutely.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(56:28) What Ije just said is also trusted advisors. (56:32) That's why I talk about therapists, coaches, business coaches, consultants. (56:38) When you're having all these rapid change coming at you, you have to make decisions quickly, which means you have to be learning quickly, which means you need sounding boards.
(56:46) So you can go and talk to your friends, or you can go and talk to your mom or your dad, but I guarantee if you go and talk to a trusted advisor who is going to give you independent, objective advice, and also who, that's their job, then the chances are that you're going to be making better decisions. (57:02) I think that's definitely something to add.
Julian Hayes II
(57:04) Absolutely. (57:05) I can speak 100% on that. (57:07) I have a lot of day one friends in the area, and going to talk to them about different business worries or just anything in business in general, you get blanks there sometimes.
(57:20) It's almost frustrating. (57:23) I have to pause for a minute because I'm getting frustrated with the answers I'm getting back, or they're just looking at me. (57:29) I'm like, why am I going to people explaining something that they're not remotely in this world?
(57:34) It's nothing against them. (57:35) They'll be there for support, but they have no idea. (57:42) So like, hey, their world is much more certain.
(57:47) They know that this Friday or whenever, they're going to get paid. (57:53) They already know that I can make this exact amount in my investments and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, all this stuff. (57:59) They're not thinking about, they don't have to think about all the little minor other things that a lot of us have to think about, which is fine.
(58:08) But like you said, having a trusted advisor, someone who's in this world, has been in this world, understands most importantly, the small nuances. (58:17) Like you said, when you're having, I like to say a cold streak in entrepreneurship, things just ain't going well right now. (58:25) And it gets really lonely in no man's land.
(58:27) It gets really lonely. (58:28) It gets cold. (58:32) I try to do a lot of workouts, but even that's not enough sometimes.
(58:35) You can only hit a bag or run so far and you still got to stop and you are going to bring you with you, right? (58:43) So you have to have that support network. (58:45) And so I fully, fully, fully, highly encourage everyone.
(58:49) I'm speaking to myself as well, because I tend to, I tend to clam up when things get tough and just like go inside and bunker down instead of opening up to finding people to talk to. (59:00) So I love that point. (59:03) If someone comes up to each of you and they say, what's a one to five word philosophy that serves as like the compass as how you approach life, what would you tell them?
Ije Nwabueze
(59:13) I would say mine is, I don't know if it's five words, but you can't give what you don't have.
Julian Hayes II
(59:18) Okay. (59:19) I like that one.
Ije Nwabueze
(59:21) Simple.
Julian Hayes II
(59:23) And that goes with energy management as well. (59:25) So I like that one.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(59:28) Mine is still, it's still like there's no sustainable high performance without wellbeing. (59:34) Just to tell people that you want to fly, you want to do whatever you want to do, become world class at the wellbeing part.
Julian Hayes II
(59:41) How do you get, how do you get people to, to buy in a lot of times, a lot of times when you're dealing with high charging career people, high charging business people, they're just thinking about the bottom line. (59:51) Time is money. (59:52) Why am I going to the gym to work out?
(59:55) Why am I going for a walk or a run? (59:56) I need to make money. (59:57) I need to rise in my career.
(1:00:00) What's your, how do you get them to buy in? (1:00:02) What are some of your tools to get them to buy in?
Ije Nwabueze
(1:00:05) Well, he's got, I mean, I'll let you speak, but you once told me about that great analogy of the, like the beautiful vase or vase, as some people would say, right? (1:00:14) Like this porcelain beauty and it slips out of your hands and it falls to the ground and it shatters into a million kazillion pieces. (1:00:21) It's done.
(1:00:22) Even if you're an expert at taking all those pieces and putting them together, just so it will never be the same, period, point blank. (1:00:32) So it's just recognizing that you don't want to experience that kind of a, for you to get that, okay, maybe I should come up with a strategy that also has space for me as well. (1:00:45) So that's one thing that I definitely think for some people, that's what they need.
(1:00:50) They need to hit the wall like that and break down. (1:00:52) And for the rest of us that are okay learning secondhand, we'll take your word for it.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(1:00:59) I usually start to use sports analogies where I just think like LeBron James, Roger Federer, I try to get them to understand that what makes them world-class is their ability to rest, recover, and rejuvenate faster than everyone. (1:01:13) And once I get people to start trying out a little bit and then all of a sudden their performance starts to go up, then it becomes like magic. (1:01:21) You're like, you mean I just need to kind of take it more intentional about the things I choose to do?
(1:01:28) That I'm finding is like when I can explain the energy management and they start to see results when they take the rest seriously, the light bulb starts to go off.
Ije Nwabueze
(1:01:38) Well, that's actually a really good point because I was (1:01:40) telling Chinazom that I saw this clip from some other thought leader and they were interviewing (1:01:45) someone and he was referencing Kobe Bryant and how his worldview is you have to go at, (1:01:53) if you believe you want something and you want to be the best, you go at it with everything you have (1:01:57) and you're willing to sacrifice everything because that's what it takes to be the best. (1:02:01) And he cited Kobe Bryant and the fact that Kobe was up at 3 or 4 a.m. practicing his free throws. (1:02:08) And I came back and I told Chinazom, and Chinazom, say what you said to me.
Chinazom Nwabueze
(1:02:13) What I felt to say was Kobe Bryant goes to bed at 8, 8 30. (1:02:18) He goes to bed, sleeps really well, he wakes up at 3, 3 30 and then he goes and starts training. (1:02:24) So he doesn't, he's not like up drinking or whatever till 12 or 1 o'clock and waking up at 3 o'clock.
(1:02:31) Because I remember watching the thing with the dream team. (1:02:34) It showed all like LeBron, Dwayne Wade, all of them, they were going out. (1:02:39) As they were going out, Kobe was going to train.
(1:02:42) When they were coming back the next morning, he was going to train. (1:02:46) He'd slept through the night. (1:02:48) So that's what people don't like.
(1:02:51) He's, his recovery and rest was like world class. (1:02:54) That's why he can go to the gym four or five times. (1:02:56) You try and go to the gym four or five times and you don't rest, you don't recover, you don't get massaged, your body will fall apart.
(1:03:03) And like LeBron now, I think, I think that experience, I can't say, I haven't asked him, but I noticed after that experience, that's when he started investing so much money in having all the nutritionists to sleep. (1:03:13) Like his sleep, his sleep, like when someone goes to go and check the hotel room, check the temperature, has the bed specially so that he gets high quality sleep. (1:03:23) Because he knows if he doesn't sleep properly, the way he taxes and trains his body, he's just not going to be able to perform.
Julian Hayes II
(1:03:29) Yeah. (1:03:30) I love that story. (1:03:31) It's not viral to hear someone say, I go to bed at 839 o'clock.
(1:03:35) It is viral to say 334 o'clock. (1:03:37) So it's funny how we never hear that, that part, which is most important. (1:03:41) What time do you go to bed?
(1:03:43) If you're, if you're waking up at 334 o'clock, we hear about all these early risers, but we never hear about them going to sleep early. (1:03:49) So, so the last question here, which I, I, I'm going to break this up since I have two people here, I'm going to do the female perspective and the male perspective. (1:03:58) So if someone comes up to you, each at a cafe, and they ask what are one to three, what are one to three things that I can start doing as a man or female to create a more fulfilling and abundant life, not just in life, but business as well.
(1:04:14) All this in one, what are those one to three things that you would tell them? (1:04:18) And you can give the male perspective. (1:04:20) You can get the female perspective because these people, they want it all.
(1:04:24) They want the life. (1:04:25) They want the good career, the health and all that. (1:04:28) But they're just feeling overwhelmed.
(1:04:30) And so luckily they ran into you two today at the cafe and they're like, this, what are a couple of nuggets that I can just get started today?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(1:04:39) So from the male perspective, I'll be like, start getting in tune with your emotions and start sharing your emotions with other people. (1:04:47) Uh, that's, that's for me is number one. (1:04:49) Cause I think a lot of the time society makes men feel like we have to play up to this thing.
(1:04:55) And that only makes us even weaker because if you're not in tune with all your emotions, you can't share love. (1:05:01) You can't share your strength in the right way. (1:05:02) Strength actually comes from the vulnerability.
(1:05:04) I whole heartedly believe that. (1:05:06) The second one is just really start to prioritize self-care. (1:05:12) Um, you can't take care of anyone.
(1:05:14) I think this is what you just said. (1:05:15) You can't take care of anyone else or give what you don't have. (1:05:17) So if you take care of yourself, chances are you can take care of the people around you better.
(1:05:22) And then the third one is become world-class at mental fitness, because if you, whatever your dreams you want to fly, the sooner you learn your mental fitness, what works for you and you dedicate that, then you will live an amazing life.
Ije Nwabueze
(1:05:37) Those are really powerful. (1:05:39) And some of those apply to, I would say the same to women as well, the wellbeing at the censored 100%. (1:05:46) And taking care of yourself, learning what that means.
(1:05:48) You have to first know yourself to know how to take care of yourself. (1:05:51) So get to know yourself first and foremost, and continue to do it because it's an ongoing process. (1:05:56) You're constantly evolving.
(1:05:58) But I think the last thing I would say for women in particular is get like, be bold and you got to see feeling as a chance to just try something new. (1:06:11) You have to kind of redefine that for yourself. (1:06:13) Um, so that you're not so down on yourself and you don't psych yourself out before you start.
(1:06:18) Like my approach to doing things that are hard or out of my comfort zone. (1:06:22) Like I told you, my head is out the train. (1:06:23) Like I take it all as a bit of play, like totally.
(1:06:27) And I'm totally okay with making a fool of myself. (1:06:30) I'm totally okay with falling down. (1:06:32) And I know that it's because at the end of the day, I'm better off having tried than not having tried if I believe in that thing.
(1:06:40) So that's what I would say for women across the board. (1:06:42) If I was to say something to my younger self is yeah, be bold earlier and more often and totally be okay if it doesn't pan out because at least you've tried and you're better off for having learned that.
Julian Hayes II
(1:06:55) I love both of those answers. (1:06:56) That's a great bookend to this awesome, awesome, awesome conversation. (1:07:01) Lastly, where can listeners and then viewers as well, where can they keep up with you guys and your ventures and all the information?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(1:07:11) So www.dreamcatchersperformance.com, all one word. (1:07:18) And also if you follow us on LinkedIn, so we're constantly on LinkedIn, Chinazom Sunny Nwabueze and then Ije Jemie Nwabueze. (1:07:27) So follow us on LinkedIn.
(1:07:29) We're always on there. (1:07:30) We're also on Instagram, but not so much. (1:07:33) But if you go to our website, you'd be able to find all the handles from there.
(1:07:37) Yeah.
Ije Nwabueze
(1:07:38) I would say definitely like our website, but LinkedIn really, it's like make it a daily destination because we're always dropping insights from our work, from our research and from our lived experience. (1:07:49) So yeah, that's a great place. (1:07:50) And we are also offering a complimentary session as well.
(1:07:53) So if you're interested and you want to explore and see what this is all about, just reach out to us with a direct message on LinkedIn and get yourself booked in for a complimentary session. (1:08:04) Why not?
Chinazom Nwabueze
(1:08:04) And our podcast as well. (1:08:06) We have the podcast.
Julian Hayes II
(1:08:08) It's a great podcast, by the way.
Ije Nwabueze
(1:08:14) Conversations on mental fitness. (1:08:15) You can always catch it on Spotify, which is another great way to stay plugged in.
Julian Hayes II
(1:08:20) And I will also share the link to your book as well. (1:08:23) In addition to the things that you all mentioned, we'll share the link to your book as well. (1:08:27) So I will have all those in the show notes for everyone.
(1:08:30) And so thank you all again. (1:08:32) I really, really enjoyed this conversation. (1:08:35) And for listeners out there, as always, stay awesome, be limitless.
(1:08:39) And as always, go be the CEO of your health and your life. (1:08:43) Peace.
