Retired Airline Captain Chris Smith on Leadership at 43000 Feet, What Makes A Real Leader, and Creating A Legacy
In today’s fast-paced world, leadership is often synonymous with authority, power, and making rapid decisions. But what if the true essence of leadership is something deeper—something more human? In a recent episode of the "Executive Health and Life" podcast, retired airline captain Chris Smith shared a wealth of wisdom on what it truly means to lead.
Drawing from decades of experience flying commercial aircraft, Chris offers a unique perspective that can inspire leaders in any field. Let’s unpack some of the key takeaways from his journey and explore how they apply to leadership today.
Watch The Episode
The Power of Slowing Down
One of Chris's central pieces of advice may surprise you: if you want to go faster, slow down. This counterintuitive approach is rooted in his experience as a pilot, where rushing often leads to mistakes. "There’s a tendency for young pilots to rush, especially under pressure, but by slowing down, you accomplish more—better," he says.
This lesson is invaluable for leaders. We live in a culture that praises speed and hustle, but taking a step back to assess, think critically, and bring your team along with you can result in more accurate decisions and more substantial outcomes. It's about patience, precision, and listening.
Music as a Source of Inspiration
It might seem odd initially to talk about Miles Davis and leadership in the same breath, but music has always been a crucial part of his l’s life. He shared how jazz icons like Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis influenced his approach to creativity and leadership. Just as these musicians reinvented themselves and brought together eclectic influences, Chris applies the same principle to leading teams.
Leaders, too, should draw from diverse inspirations and be willing to adapt and evolve. The best leaders constantly learn, reinvent themselves, and encourage their teams to do the same.
Leading by Influence, Not Authority
One of Chris's most profound distinctions is the difference between power and influence. He explains that while a leader might hold power or authority by virtue of their role, it’s influence that truly lasts.
"In the cockpit, everyone’s input is critical. You need people to tell you what’s happening without fear, even if it’s something you don’t want to hear," Chris explains. "True leadership comes from creating an environment where people feel safe to speak up and contribute their best ideas."
This means creating a culture of openness and humility for today's leaders. Influence grows from trust, respect, and a leader's ability to inspire rather than control. When people feel genuinely heard and valued, they’re far more likely to contribute fully to the mission at hand.
Leadership is About Legacy
Throughout the episode, Chris reflects on the long-term impact of leadership. For him, it’s not just about the decisions made in the moment, but the legacy you leave behind. This applies to his pilot career and his broader life philosophy.
"A good leader is someone who makes things better," Chris says. "Whether in the cockpit or a corporate boardroom, your actions should have a positive, lasting impact on the people around you."
Legacy-building starts with small, everyday actions—like being a compassionate listener, mentoring others, and creating an environment where people thrive. Leaders are remembered not for their titles but for the difference they make in the lives of others.
The Decline of Commercial Leadership
Chris points out a shift that many are noticing in the business world today: the decline of purely commercially-driven leadership. "People don’t just want higher profits anymore," he explains. "They want purpose. They want to know that their work matters, that they’re contributing to something bigger than just the bottom line."
This is particularly relevant in a post-COVID world, where employees are rethinking what they value in their work. Companies that continue to operate with a "profits first" mindset may find it increasingly difficult to retain top talent. The new wave of leadership is about balance—achieving financial success while fostering a positive culture and giving people a sense of meaning in their work.
Building a Culture of Trust and Engagement
As Chris shares his experiences in the aviation industry, it becomes clear that building a strong culture is at the heart of effective leadership. He stresses the importance of engagement—not through flashy perks or prizes, but by fostering real, meaningful relationships.
"It’s not about throwing money at people or offering prizes," Chris explains. "It’s about creating a culture where people feel genuinely valued and connected to the work they do."
This is a valuable lesson for any organization. While monetary rewards can provide short-term motivation, lasting engagement comes from a deeper connection to the company’s mission, values, and people.
Power, Influence, and Humility
One of the most striking parts of the episode is Chris’s reflection on the power of humility in leadership. He explains that while leaders may hold authority, those who lead with humility leave the greatest impact. Chris admires figures like David Attenborough and Mahatma Gandhi, noting that their influence comes not from power but from their ability to connect with others on a human level.
"True leaders don’t have to assert their authority," Chris says. "They lead through influence and humility, making people want to follow them because they inspire trust and respect."
This is a crucial reminder for modern leaders. Leadership isn’t about titles or control; it’s about fostering trust, being approachable, and lifting others up.
The Future of Leadership
As we look to the future, Chris suggests that leadership will continue to evolve in a more human-centric direction. Post-pandemic employees seek more from their leaders than ever before—empathy, transparency, and a focus on well-being. The challenge for leaders is to step up and meet these expectations by leading with heart, not just strategy.
Conclusion: A Leader’s True Legacy
At the heart of this episode is a powerful message: leadership isn’t just about making decisions in the moment—it’s about creating a lasting, positive impact. Whether you’re leading a team at 43,000 feet or in a corporate office, the principles are the same. Lead with humility, build trust, and strive to improve things for those around you.
Chris’s reflections remind us that authentic leadership is about influence, not authority. It’s about making a difference and leaving behind a legacy of respect, compassion, and positive change.
If you’re looking for more insights on leadership and life from Chris Smith, be sure to check out his book, Leadership at 43,000 Feet.
Connect with Chris Smith
Website: https://www.aculturalleadership.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-smith-0080374b
(Book) Leadership at 43,000 Feet: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-43-000-Feet-leaders/dp/1923007653
Transcript
Chris Smith
(0:00) If you want to go faster, slow down. (0:03) If you want to go faster, by going faster I mean achieve more and accomplish more, better, slow down. (0:10) Because that's the way you'll actually get more done.
(0:11) You actually get, you'll do it more accurately, you get the information you want and you'll take people with you. (0:18) So there is a tendency, I think, for young pilots to rush, to think okay we're time limited, we've only got so much fuel, we've only got, you know, we've got all things going on with air traffic control and all sorts of things. (0:28) But the key is really to slow down and you'll actually achieve more and better.
Julian Hayes II
(0:39) So I am joined by none other than Chris Smith all the way from Australia. (0:44) And before we even get into this fantastic book that I have here, there's a very important thing I saw on probably the second page. (0:52) And he loves 70s and R&B music.
(0:55) So now we have to have a little talk about that. (0:58) So Chris, firstly, welcome to the show. (1:00) But I'm very, I'm curious now, who do you like?
(1:03) Now I wasn't born during that time, but like I feel like my father and then my relatives like just brainwashed me with that music. (1:12) So who do you like?
Chris Smith
(1:15) Oh, I actually love music. (1:18) I just love music, you know, and it just takes me away. (1:21) I like everyone from Eric Clapton to Anita Baker to, you know, all the really big ones, you know, and the American artists are just they just take you to another level.
(1:34) You know, I have a broad music taste, but it's one of the lessons I actually talk about with people that you find out what makes you tick. (1:44) And for me, music like that just takes me away instantly, you know, straight away. (1:48) So if I need to de-stress or do anything, I'll turn that music on and I'm just somewhere else.
(1:53) Absolutely love it.
Julian Hayes II
(1:55) Yeah. (1:55) Yeah. (1:55) Same thing here.
(1:57) And I'm curious, do you think music has played an influence in terms of how you went about your career? (2:03) And what I mean by that is, for instance, for me, Miles Davis was a huge inspiration for me and just how he was very creative, always reinventing himself and had a very eclectic mix of inspirations that he put out into his music and his bandmates. (2:21) And it's something that I think about when I'm either doing a podcast or I'm writing or even if I'm just consulting and advising with people is to think about all the different influences and to think about like think of it as a form of art.
Chris Smith
(2:32) It is totally a form of art. (2:35) Herbie Hancock would be another one, you know, all these fantastic musicians. (2:40) The answer to that is did it influence my career?
(2:42) Absolutely. (2:43) And because music is like a poetry with sound, you know, that's how I feel. (2:48) It changes your mood and I've traveled in all sorts of places, you know, and it takes me to those places.
(2:54) Now that I actually finished my active flying career, I can still go back to those places. (2:59) In my mind, sounds will trigger a place in Japan or outback Australia. (3:05) It will actually trigger those memories for me because I was listening to that music at that time.
(3:09) So it's almost like reliving it. (3:12) Miles Davis, boy, you are picking the good musicians right there. (3:15) And they really are.
(3:17) And it is art. (3:18) It's pure art. (3:19) It can be artistic for people who cook, you know, for artists, for musicians, for writers, you know, writing a story, for example, is like painting a picture to start with a blank canvas or if someone wants to write a story, it's a blank bit of paper.
(3:37) Absolutely.
Julian Hayes II
(3:38) So, you know, so you were a pilot for a long time and you did a whole host of other things that we'll get into. (3:44) But I'm wondering, as a kid, were you flying airplane toys around, just flying around the house or something? (3:51) What led to the inspiration to be a pilot?
Chris Smith
(3:53) Yes, it's so interesting, isn't it? (3:55) When you look back, the answer to that is yes. (3:57) And I was imagining, honestly, what it would be like to be higher.
(4:02) And I guess my greatest inspiration was probably my father from a flying point of view. (4:08) I mean, he was at the end of World War Two. (4:10) His eyesight wasn't good enough for him to go flying there, but he adored flight.
(4:14) And he always encouraged us. (4:16) And I've got all these fantastic books of his. (4:19) He's passed away now, but all these fantastic books.
(4:21) You could see the love of flight in him. (4:24) And he really encouraged us to do whatever we want to do. (4:28) He was so, and my mother, too, both inspirational.
(4:33) And honestly, Julian, one of my earliest memories as a young boy, maybe seven or eight years of age, is sitting around our dining room table at dinnertime thinking, well, anything's possible. (4:44) So how lucky am I to have an influence like that, truly?
Julian Hayes II
(4:49) Yeah, I mean, that's a very lucky thing to have, this anything is possible mentality. (4:55) And I sort of had that growing up just like where I think it's that exposure or just that one little seed of belief in you just can make all the difference, you know, from going the wrong direction to the right direction. (5:10) Do you think that with, oops, let me see, with being a pilot and everything, I was afraid of heights so long.
(5:21) And what is it about flying that is just so exhilarating to you?
Chris Smith
(5:30) So much of it, Julian, honestly. (5:32) My father described it, once again, as another dimension. (5:36) Yeah, that's what he said.
(5:37) And boy, was he right. (5:39) You get a planned view of the world. (5:41) And I still have a romance in me about flight.
(5:46) It's more than flight to me, it's a journey. (5:48) You know, we're going places. (5:49) I write in my book about one of my favourite places of flying is in Chapter 41, which is north of New Guinea and south of Guam at about three o'clock in the morning.
(6:02) And it's a fairly romantic chapter, I guess. (6:04) But that's the place where we fly through particular cloud formations, you know, and you have to duck around. (6:11) It's like kelp forest under the ocean.
(6:14) You have to duck around, you know, because they're a little bit rough to fly through. (6:17) But what I love about it is that we're sitting out there with 300 people behind us. (6:22) Everyone's calm.
(6:23) There's no arguing, no bias, no prejudice, not anything. (6:27) You know, everyone's just getting on really so well here. (6:31) So, you know, I guess there's an answer for you right there.
(6:34) I just love the camaraderie and the camaraderie extends to the air traffic controllers that we're talking to, who we work with. (6:41) You'd be surprised just how much liaison we have with those people, with the cabin crew operating as a team. (6:48) And I just love, to be honest, I just love mixing with people.
(6:52) I really do. (6:52) And so when I build my crew, I don't want the crew, you know, we're together to achieve this and have a good time. (7:02) And if I build the right team, and I don't talk team as much anymore, I talk community now, Julian, they'll be there for me when things don't go well.
(7:13) And occasionally that happens, you know, I want them to open up to me. (7:16) So I just love the feeling of building that environment, because what we do matters, you know, things are going fine most of the time, but when they don't, they can really go south very quickly. (7:28) So, and I love the views clearly, you know, the dawns and the sunsets are to behold, volcanic activity, you see beautiful parts of the world and parts of the world that shouldn't be as they are, they should be way better than they are.
(7:45) And I talk about that in the book too. (7:48) Because, and I love it because the higher you go, the more fascinating it actually is. (7:53) Sometimes I would still be up there thinking, goodness me, it's minus 50 degrees C outside, you know, how extraordinary is man to be able to create something that can keep us all so safe and comfortable.
Julian Hayes II
(8:07) Yeah, you know, when I'm thinking about it, and your book kind of reads like, I would say, there's leadership lessons in there. (8:16) But it's also like an adventure that I'm almost like reliving the experiences with you as you're describing it, just like when you're talking about Japan, and just going through that, I've never been to Japan, but I can put more of a picture in my head as you're kind of describing the people and the culture a little bit in there. (8:34) One of the things that interests me about being a pilot is that, and you make this point in the book, is that a lot of times, unlike in business, the leader, CEO, the founder, they make a mistake, everyone doesn't necessarily have to suffer for it.
(8:52) Or themselves, I'm sorry, they don't have to necessarily suffer for it. (8:55) Whereas when you mentioned when you were flying, that if you make a mistake, everyone suffers, including yourself. (9:01) And I thought that was a very interesting point right there, in terms of like, the stakes are high for every single person involved.
(9:08) What are some other common, I would say, things about pilots that the general public wouldn't think of as much, in terms of what it takes to really perform as a pilot?
Chris Smith
(9:26) You know, it's very interesting. (9:28) It's important. (9:30) There are a number of issues here.
(9:31) That's a really wonderful question. (9:33) To set the right gradient, we call it a flight deck gradient between the captain, obviously, and the rest of the crew. (9:39) If it's too steep, then that will just shut people down.
(9:42) They won't talk to us. (9:43) They won't open up and give us all of their skills, all of their information that we really do need. (9:47) We need them to tell us everything, even if we don't really want to hear it, without fear.
(9:54) There are lots of lessons I've learned. (9:56) One of these, and it applies in life as well, Julian, is if you want to go faster, slow down. (10:05) If you want to go faster, by going faster, I mean achieve more and accomplish more better, slow down, because that's the way you'll actually get more done.
(10:14) You'll do it more accurately. (10:16) You get the information you want, and you'll take people with you. (10:20) There is a tendency, I think, for young pilots to rush, to think, okay, we're time limited.
(10:24) We've only got so much fuel. (10:27) We've got all things going on with air traffic control and all sorts of things, but the key is really to slow down, and you'll actually achieve more and better. (10:39) I think one of the difficulties, I guess, with a pilot's life is the shift work.
(10:48) You learn more about you and how you work at your peak and where your troughs are as well. (10:55) You've got time zone changes. (10:56) You've got shift work.
(10:58) It's probably shift work on steroids. (11:00) You learn a lot about yourself. (11:03) There's a lot of self-awareness sitting in here and how effective or ineffective I've been on a particular day or a particular time.
(11:12) I think that would be it. (11:14) You'd learn a lot about yourself because what you do matters. (11:17) It's critical, and we're not the only walk of life in which that applies, but it's a great point you raise because if we make things affect us, even on the surface of it, it doesn't, then we're going to gain great respect from those people who we work with.
(11:39) In our walk of life, we're in there too, so if something's going wrong, it's going to affect us too. (11:45) Perhaps if we're on the operating table and it's not to diminish anything that any other walk of life does, but if the operation doesn't go so well, we're not going to be directly affected by that. (11:57) I think that's probably some of the keys for me.
Julian Hayes II
(12:03) Yeah, I love that, and that makes a lot of sense. (12:07) One of the other things in the book was you mentioned that altitude plus power equals performance. (12:15) I guess you were talking a little about the grey and how to operate in that.
(12:19) I would love to expound on that a little more because I think that is something that, whether it's dealing with our health or whether it's dealing with our companies or going up the ranks in corporate, a lot of these things have a grey. (12:31) It's not linear, and it's not going to be black or white. (12:34) What was the inspiration behind coming up with that?
Chris Smith
(12:37) That's right, and that is a fundamental aviation principle. (12:41) The attitude of the aircraft, the amount of power you've got means you're going to get a certain performance, but it's absolutely applicable in business and in our own life. (12:49) You know, Julian, I think we're witnessing the decline of the purely commercially-oriented leadership.
(12:58) People are wanting more, particularly post-COVID, but they're wanting more out of it here, and we've got to respond to that. (13:04) So share price increases are good, profits increasing, that's good, but they tend to be temporary because if we don't do things right by people, that's only going to be a short-term hit. (13:17) It might be a couple of years or so, but that's good commercial management.
(13:20) It's not leadership. (13:21) So leadership, for me, the really, really good leaders stand for something. (13:27) They stand for something, and if I take someone like, let's say, David Attenborough, now people may not associate him with leadership, but he is extremely influential globally.
(13:40) I think we've all got to take moral ownership of David Attenborough because he lives his life for the environment and everybody listens to him. (13:50) But the other key to him is his humility. (13:54) He is so humble, people listen, and that is key here.
(13:58) If you're humble, people will listen. (14:01) They will speak to you. (14:02) They'll open up and tell you things, and that's what you need in terms of leadership.
(14:08) Then you take another lead, and I think David Attenborough would be in this, Mahatma Gandhi would be in this, and a few others, perhaps Barack Obama. (14:18) They've become iconic. (14:20) They've become iconic leaders.
(14:21) So they don't, therefore their attitude gives them that power, and then they'll get the result. (14:28) But it's not about them. (14:29) It's about other people.
(14:30) They are genuinely there to make things better. (14:33) So the true leaders are there to make things better. (14:36) They're not just there to follow a formula or an organisational chart or whatever it may be, you know, a model.
(14:43) They try to make things better, and that's why they get such an incredible following.
Julian Hayes II
(14:50) And you mentioned here that the decline of the commercial leadership, and what type of leadership is replacing that? (14:58) Is that what you call the cultural leadership?
Chris Smith
(15:02) Yes, yes. (15:03) That's my view, because people do want more. (15:05) They don't want to be dictated to.
(15:08) Yes, because I don't think there is a very large portion of the population who are willing to pay a full price for anything anymore, and everyone wants a deal, and I get that. (15:21) But you know what? (15:22) There's a human cost to that.
(15:23) It doesn't matter whether we're airfare, torpedo airfares, or we're selling ladders or lawnmowers. (15:30) It doesn't matter. (15:31) There's a human cost to this.
(15:33) And ultimately, people have reached the point, I think, where they're thinking, well, what's in this for me? (15:39) And so if you've got execs, and I'm quite happy for execs to earn really good pay, no problem at all. (15:46) But when you get the extremes, people are thinking, well, well, hang on a second, you know, that's more about you.
(15:51) It's not about us. (15:53) You know, it's gone too far. (15:55) Really, we need to temper that and settle that down a bit because, you know, are you in here for the company and the greater good, or are you just to see how much money you can get?
(16:05) One of the questions I like to, and I think should be asked of the executives, and don't worry, I'm not any exec at all, but sometimes the extremes are, you can sense it here that people have just had enough of the extremes. (16:19) The question is, if we paid you $5 million instead of $10 million, would you make lesser quality decisions? (16:29) Or if that's the case, then maybe you should look elsewhere, because we still think $5 million is a lot of money, you know?
(16:35) And I think we really need to be asking that of boards as well. (16:40) Where's your value set really lie? (16:42) Is it for us as well?
(16:44) Because you get us on site, then we'll drive the share price for you. (16:48) We'll look after you.
Julian Hayes II
(16:50) So part of what you do now, to my understanding, is also you work at organizations now as well and bring some of these principles in there. (16:59) And kind of to go along with this last point made, is think of engagement and building a culture. (17:07) So as you see this now in this modern business world, what are some of the common culture building mistakes that you're seeing?
Chris Smith
(17:17) That's so true. (17:18) In fact, I'm working with a company right now who had the very same problem. (17:23) We were giving people free this and free that, but the people are still complaining.
(17:29) Because if you're giving people money, then if it requires the money to do more than their normal work, well, there's something wrong here. (17:39) They're working for the money and it's extrinsic anyway, because if you take the money away, you take the inducement away, you take the performance away. (17:48) So money ultimately does not work and people become desensitized to levels of remuneration anyway.
(17:56) Prizes don't work. (17:57) They might work for a little bit, but with maybe a young person or a new person, but ultimately, we want to know what the culture of the place is really like. (18:08) And people, seriously, they just want to have an open, honest relationship and a free relationship.
(18:17) And the way to really do that at the basic level is to think ahead to when maybe people are, say, 70 and they're sitting around with their grandchildren talking about their career. (18:30) Of course, they will want to have been a part of a very successful, profitable, growing organization. (18:35) But what they really want to be thinking about is all the really great memories all the way through in their own careers within the organization.
(18:45) Associate that and you are 90% the way there to getting a pure, a true engagement, really. (18:53) That's what it's about. (18:54) So prizes, in fact, if you have a cynical workforce, if you then give prizes, they'll just think you're trying to buy them off, you know, to buy their loyalty.
(19:03) It doesn't work. (19:04) They don't want that falseness anymore.
Julian Hayes II
(19:07) That almost seems like empty calories, because I think at times you see someone that's adding various amenities to the office, but it's not necessarily really affecting the people and their well-being. (19:20) It's almost like you're trying to cover a flesh wound with a very small band-aid when you do those types of things.
Chris Smith
(19:26) That's a perfect description. (19:28) It's exactly what it is. (19:29) And they see it as that.
(19:31) People are smart. (19:33) They get that. (19:34) I'll use that analogy myself, but it's actually so true.
(19:40) They want truth now. (19:41) They want reality. (19:42) People reassess.
(19:43) I'm glad. (19:45) As a society, we're not running a business. (19:49) But in business, we can run a society as well.
(19:51) We can run our own society, and that's how the legendary companies operate. (19:56) I think you take Virgin, for example, with Richard Branson, highly successful. (20:03) His principle is, you know, I look after the staff first, and I look after the customers.
(20:07) So he flips things on his head quite a lot, you know, puts himself out there. (20:13) So there are some really iconic companies that operate that way, but it's human-centered. (20:18) So we can have the hardware right, we have the software right, but if we forget about the human beings, you've lost that pillar of the three-legged stool you really have.
(20:28) And you'll never know, Julian, what top performance is, because too often, if people are hamstrung by a lack of engagement, they'll give what I term minimum plus. (20:40) They'll do the minimum plus a little bit to keep them safe, to keep their job secure. (20:46) You won't get top performance.
Julian Hayes II
(20:48) You think that's the biggest block, the biggest chokehold with companies in terms of getting top performance? (20:55) Do you think it's that particular thing right there?
Chris Smith
(20:58) Oh, totally, totally. (20:59) It is the issue. (21:01) We want people to be free and just let them go.
(21:04) And sometimes, yes, within the organizational chart, particularly if it's a steep chart, it actually holds people back from expressing what they really want to express, because people look at their boxes, and they're the specialists in those fields. (21:21) But the lines are reporting lines. (21:23) They should be relationship lines.
(21:25) We need to find out exactly what's really going on. (21:29) And of course, the really steep organizational charts tend to sometimes bring out undesirable traits in people, because there are fewer and fewer jobs as we go up the ladder. (21:40) And so people become a bit self-protective.
(21:42) Maybe I'll try and hold this person back because they're a threat to me, and I want the top job. (21:48) So I favor a much flatter structure, absolutely, and let people run, even if they have to give us news that we don't want to hear. (21:56) That's okay.
Julian Hayes II
(21:57) Absolutely. (21:59) I jotted this down. (22:00) You mentioned talking to your grandkids and thinking about how someone should think about their career as they're talking back.
(22:06) And this is something that I actually thought about. (22:08) And it led to a lot of career decisions for me is that I took myself 50 years from now and thought about how would I describe my career and how I wanted to describe it. (22:17) And so I'm curious with you now, with grandkids and things like that and younger generation, how would you describe your career to them in maybe just a couple sentences?
(22:28) What would you tell them?
Chris Smith
(22:30) I'm so fortunate because I started studying architecture and quantity surveying because I was either flying or that. (22:40) And because my parents had a building business, and I thought, okay, so I was somewhat leaning to that, I guess, from a safety point of view. (22:50) So I started studying that within six months.
(22:52) I knew that wasn't for me. (22:53) I knew I had to fulfill my dreams. (22:55) So I took that risk.
(22:56) I did. (22:57) It's a non-standard job, really. (22:59) And I had no idea what was awaiting me.
(23:03) And boy, oh boy, am I glad because if we know what's coming, we're just living a script in life, Julie. (23:11) I like the fact that we don't know. (23:13) And so when you're encouraged to take those calculated risks, you become better at getting through these stumbling blocks, things that don't work.
(23:21) And honestly, and to extract so much out of your career, you could go through this career if you want and not push the boundaries, not try other things. (23:32) But fortunately with, I guess, my nature and my upbringing, I was challenged to do that. (23:37) And I managed to extract a whole lot out of it.
(23:39) So I can now look back at that young man. (23:43) I think, thank goodness you followed your dream. (23:46) Thank goodness for that.
(23:47) There's nothing sadder than someone who doesn't do that, doesn't try.
Julian Hayes II
(23:51) I got a question on that. (23:53) How do you encourage people to do that? (23:58) And the reason why I ask is because a lot of times, kind of what we talked about at the very beginning, where you had that influence at the dinner table, I had that exposure to seeing different people do things that I didn't even know was possible.
(24:11) For people who don't have that, how do you do that then?
Chris Smith
(24:17) It's very interesting. (24:19) Here's my counseling coming out, I guess, but our attitudes now, our views on life are set really young, within a few years of birth, really. (24:29) And once they're set, they're pretty well locked in, generally, and only another major experience will change it.
(24:37) Take, for example, a person who's just spent all their life trying to make money and accumulate houses and wealth and all the rest of it, and then they get sick. (24:44) It's maybe their 50s or something. (24:47) And then those houses and cars become valueless.
(24:49) And then they start to resent them for what they represent, and which is waste, really. (24:56) I'm doing other things. (24:58) But that can apply both ways.
(25:01) So if people haven't been exposed to that, they can be exposed to a really good experience to think, hang on a second, that's changing my attitude here. (25:09) I can actually do this. (25:12) I used to fly with a person years ago.
(25:15) He said, I never get optimistic. (25:18) I never tell my kids to be optimistic, because then they won't be disappointed. (25:21) And I thought, wow, that is just so depressing for me and negative for me.
(25:27) But if you show them what is possible, and I mean, really show them, and that's what I do with my students at the university and elsewhere, to show them and just talk to them genuinely and give them that exposure. (25:41) They really need to see it, actually see it in action. (25:45) And so I guess that's why I wrote my book as you'll probably read, primarily for my kids.
(25:51) And it went from there, because I wanted them to see, hang on, there's more to dad than just this dad. (25:58) And these are my views on life. (26:00) These are my experiences.
(26:01) These are the risks I took. (26:02) Some may not have worked before that I learned from them. (26:06) So I'm trying to expose other generations, if you like, to success, ultimate success.
(26:13) What success can be for you, whether it's in this, in music, architecture, accounting, it doesn't matter. (26:22) The key really is to think, early on, what do I want to achieve here? (26:26) What actually do I want to achieve?
(26:29) Why do I want to do that? (26:31) Because you don't want to be a CEO and then find out, hang on, it's not what I expected. (26:37) It really didn't tick the box for me.
(26:39) I wanted to do good in the world. (26:43) So I need to talk a lot about that, and hopefully that will influence people, the younger people to be enthused, to actually be inspired to do that, because anyone can do this.
Julian Hayes II
(26:55) Yes, I love that you kind of had that in mind when you were talking about it, because one of the things I talk about when it comes to health, and even just this podcast and everything, it's a living document that should hopefully be around forever, as long as we've got internet and everything. (27:10) But then also I think about, there's big pillars in life, where I always tell people that their health is not just about themselves, but it's about the three big pillars a lot of times, which is our business slash career, it's our community, and then it's our family. (27:22) So I bring that up because I'm curious, as you're talking about your kids and writing the book, how has being a pilot, being in this aviation industry, what influences has that had on you and being a father, and how does it make you better at that?
Chris Smith
(27:40) I learned, A, I love flight, absolutely adored it, and still do. (27:46) But I also learned about myself, and I learned that I just love the interaction with people, and I love being in a situation where you can actually provide or create the environment where they can be their level best. (28:01) And that's why I went back to university and extra studying and started counselling.
(28:08) And then I thought, no, we need to, we can do so much more here, people need not be restricted by this. (28:13) So I got into that into some depth. (28:16) And what it taught me was, I basically loved expanding people's horizons and to have that go.
(28:25) So I started with mental health programs for the airline here. (28:30) And I went to the CEO basically and said, look, I think we need to do this because we can get so much more from people and look after them. (28:37) So we set them up in Japan and Singapore and New Zealand and Australia.
(28:41) Through that, I learned, I met so many people and life changed for me. (28:45) You know, I never knew anyone in Japan until 2012. (28:48) And now some of my best friends are Japanese.
(28:54) So honestly, that would be my response to that. (28:59) And I think from that point of view, the humanistic point of view of leadership has helped enormously because we need to ask ourselves, what do I really want? (29:13) You know, at the end of my career, do I want to have the respect of the masses or do I want to just have respect of just the handful of people around me?
(29:23) Because I think if we have the respect of the vast majority of people from any strata, any walk of life, to me, that's real success. (29:34) It really is. (29:36) You've done something good for the world.
(29:38) That's what I think.
Julian Hayes II
(29:39) And so one other chapter to talk about here is you mentioned power and authority versus influence. (29:46) And I'm imagining here that one, I would imagine if maybe I'm on the right track here, that power and authority maybe is an old form of leadership, whereas influence is a more effective form of leadership today. (29:57) Or has it always been that way?
Chris Smith
(29:59) No, I'd go along with that. (30:01) In fact, I think it's becoming even more so. (30:05) You know, we only have power or authority by virtue of a role or a title that we hold.
(30:11) We soon find out how good a job we've done, Julian, when we don't have that role anymore and we don't have control or influence over anybody anymore. (30:19) Think of the organisational chart. (30:21) If we've done a good job, or if we haven't done a good job, then people won't give us the time of day when we pass them in the street because we have no control over them anymore.
(30:31) If you've done a good job, we'll have something way more powerful, and that's influence. (30:36) We'll be listened to even when we don't have that, when we've retired or left or done something else. (30:41) And the big leaders have that.
(30:43) They have influence primarily through their humility. (30:47) So why not gain the influence now while we're in the position, while we've got that power or authority? (30:53) Why not do that?
(30:56) I draw the parallel, Julian, of people who don't have to exercise their power or authority because they've got influence. (31:05) In the book, Professional Boxer, I'm not sure if you've read that bit, I often admire some of those people who are very powerful, say physically, but they don't have to exercise because they know they can defeat the aggressor anyway. (31:19) They know that, so they're just too good for that.
(31:22) Occasionally, they might have to just, and a powerful manager may have to exercise a little, just drop that in, hang on, we need to do this. (31:30) But they're so influential that they don't have to exercise their power or authority at all. (31:34) They just influence other people.
Julian Hayes II
(31:37) You mentioned being a proponent of mental health, helping people expand their horizons. (31:43) And then also in the book, you mentioned something about getting rid of the mask that we walk around with. (31:48) And for a lot of people that you see now, what are maybe, I don't know, one or two of the common things that a lot of leaders struggle with in terms of removing that mask and showing a quote-unquote proverbial chink in the armor or something.
(32:02) Because I know it's something that's tough for me to do, is to show that I struggle with something or to open up because you're so worried about what they're going to think of you, you know, is this going to make you look weaker and all this types of stuff.
Chris Smith
(32:15) Yeah, that's right. (32:16) You know, we all wear a mask, you know, we all do it. (32:19) So it's all about managing our image, Julian, isn't it?
(32:22) And we're afraid you know that then it will be seen as weak. (32:26) But showing some vulnerability means people respect you enormously because they'll relate to you. (32:30) They'll just say, oh, wow, I really respect that person because they're just like me.
(32:35) They're just coming off a higher base, you know, so I can relate and I'll open up to them. (32:40) So yes, they are afraid. (32:43) They're afraid to drop that.
(32:44) They're afraid to give because that may not come back. (32:47) You know, they need to take that chance. (32:49) So they put a mask up that, hang on, I'm the leader, yep, I've got it all under control here.
(32:54) Well, there's no such thing. (32:56) You know, truly, I need my crew and the departments I've worked for and those companies that I've set up to be able to, they're the specialists, not me. (33:06) I just gather the information.
(33:08) I'm a specialist in my field, but I gather the information, listen, ask, get the information and then make my decision. (33:16) Asking is power, you know, telling people what to do will just shut them down. (33:21) So that they need to, I guess, practice that.
(33:25) I'm talking about the leaders here and drop that mask and learn that people will open up like you wouldn't believe the moment you do that and show that degree of humility. (33:36) It's such a powerful thing. (33:37) And so it's showing great strength as a human.
(33:42) So yes, they put the mask up for those sorts of reasons, you know, holding the status. (33:47) They will gain the status genuinely. (33:50) You don't have to force that.
Julian Hayes II
(33:53) Yeah. (33:53) And I saw a quote here that I have down here and it's a little bit of a different subject. (33:59) It's, if we're going to have families, children, we owe it to them to devote at least part of our lives to making the world a better place.
(34:06) And so where did this philosophy slash viewpoint come from?
Chris Smith
(34:12) You know, I have three children and three grandchildren, you know, and two girls and a boy and three granddaughters. (34:24) And, you know, Juliana, I honestly, they have been brought up to expect that they can do anything they want. (34:31) They have a right to that.
(34:32) But to be streetwise enough to know that people will, they're not, the rest of the world isn't there yet. (34:39) So they have a right to be not stereotyped. (34:43) And I guess maybe, maybe where did it come from?
(34:47) I guess there is some hardship as well. (34:49) And I didn't have a straightforward career. (34:51) I was in and out of some roles and jobs from time to time because companies would go broke or something would happen, you know, and then the children, you know, you might have trouble paying the school fees, all those sorts of things.
(35:04) It adds up. (35:04) So some hardship actually is valuable. (35:08) It's scary at the time.
(35:09) You do come out the other side, it makes you realise what you're made of, I guess. (35:14) But the direct effect it's having on your children as well, you know, how much information do I release to them? (35:21) You know, we can't burden them with adults' problems.
(35:24) And I don't have a right to actually, I've learned that you don't have a right to actually rule their lives for them. (35:31) They did not ask to be here, but I've got a responsibility to look after them. (35:35) And I want to make the world better for them.
(35:38) They didn't, to me, it's a selfish thing to be just having children because I want them. (35:43) I've a responsibility to these children to make things better because I'm not going to be here forever. (35:49) So I want it to be better for them.
(35:52) Maybe it come through, it's come through my humanistic background, my parents were by demonstration, I guess. (36:02) They showed us how to have a successful business life, a family life and to contribute to society. (36:08) They were heavily into charitable causes as well.
(36:11) So I think the influence was at a very young age as well. (36:16) It was just inculcated into me, Julian, I think.
Julian Hayes II
(36:21) Yeah. (36:21) So that's a, it's almost like at times, like for me, I say success is an obligation or to really do your potential is it's an obligation. (36:31) You owe it to yourself.
(36:31) You owe it to the people that you came after and those things, and the people that are going to come after you as well to kind of set that example. (36:42) And speaking of that, a lot of times when we talk about a leader, we always get caught up on a title and we look at that. (36:49) And I like where you said that anyone can be a leader, you know, anyone can be a leader.
(36:54) But do you feel like it's a calling to be a leader or is it something that just naturally happens?
Chris Smith
(37:01) A lot of people, it is natural. (37:03) No, no question. (37:05) What I want people to have to think about is whether they can be that too.
(37:09) And to be a leader, you can be anywhere on the organisational chart. (37:14) You find that, you find the really influential people can be somewhere in the middle or down the bottom. (37:19) It doesn't actually matter.
(37:21) You know, it's really about influencing where you're at, because not everyone wants to be a CEO. (37:29) So being a leader to me does not equal CEO. (37:32) I don't have to be a CEO to be a leader.
(37:34) I don't have to be a chief operating officer to be a leader, because often those people are looking for guidance from below. (37:41) They are looking, they are asking, but you can't expect the leader to know everything. (37:46) You know, and I don't always agree that the culture always starts at the top.
(37:50) Not really. (37:51) What I've learned is they tend to appreciate feedback and help from below. (37:56) So you are leading from below.
(37:59) So what I want people to have to think about is that perhaps you can lead. (38:05) Just think about what leadership actually is. (38:08) Leadership is about making something better that you too can lead in your own field, in your own life, you know, right where you're at.
(38:16) Don't worry about the stereotype chief executive officer to be a leader.
Julian Hayes II
(38:21) Absolutely. (38:23) You know, we're halfway into, well, a little over halfway into 2024 now. (38:28) And this may be a challenging question to boil down to just one or two things.
(38:33) But in today's world, as it is now, what would you say is the one or two most important qualities that we really, that leaders really need to embody right now in today's current climate?
Chris Smith
(38:48) We need to be, it has to be a humanistic profile from now on. (38:53) That's my view. (38:55) I'm often asked, or sometimes asked, what is the world's biggest problem?
(38:59) And I ask people that question. (39:01) The world's biggest problem, the world's biggest problem to me is pointless, damaging argument, Julian. (39:11) So if the leader can be a person who does that, who can diminish that, will make a massive difference here.
(39:19) Because most argument is not constructive at all. (39:23) And I'm talking about from the household through organisations to globally, we're seeing it everywhere right now. (39:29) And most of it needn't be.
(39:31) So that to me would be a quality that probably most people don't think about, but is to placate a lot of this pointless stress that exists. (39:44) It just needn't be, including in our own lives. (39:49) That's what I think.
(39:50) So, you know, that would be the quality I'd be looking for in leadership now, and that quiet strength, you know, the quiet, calm strength. (40:00) Because, you know, there's a lot of turmoil going on at the moment. (40:03) But we really need people we can aspire to be like, and they're not the big dictators.
(40:09) They're not the ones, you know, that's quite cowardly, I think, to be a dictator like that. (40:15) Absolutely. (40:16) Calm strength, I think.
Julian Hayes II
(40:19) And you mentioned changing things around us, and taking care of that first and foremost. (40:24) And there's a quote in here that I just opened up. (40:26) And it's changed things around you, and your impact multiplies.
(40:29) And then also, those around you will be inspired. (40:33) And so, and I think a lot of times, we think that we don't have much control, or that we don't have much impact, because I may not have the title, I may not have the accolades. (40:43) But it actually, you actually do have more impact than you think, because you're influencing somebody around you.
(40:52) And so, that can ultimately be the spark. (40:54) And so, I think that's a lot of times, kind of what you're talking about as well, on even just writing this book.
Chris Smith
(41:01) Definitely. (41:02) The little things are the big things, in truth, Julian. (41:07) And people are watching you, particularly your family.
(41:10) They're watching you anyway. (41:11) You know, your children are watching you. (41:13) You're watching how you behave, how you conduct yourself in circumstances, and it is so powerful for them.
(41:20) And your friends, your neighbourhoods, be someone they can aspire to be like, honestly. (41:26) And it really does multiply on a local level, and on a bigger level. (41:30) People are looking for that.
(41:31) People want to be looked after, Julian, at all stages, whether a child, or at school, or in your business, or our governments. (41:41) We want our governments to look after us, and we get a bit upset when they don't. (41:44) We want AFL to be safe.
(41:48) So, we don't have to be at that level. (41:52) But honestly and truly, you'll find that the respect for you will multiply rapidly, rapidly, if we just start doing be someone they aspire to be like. (42:03) And that's just within your own family, your own environment, your own school, wherever it may be.
(42:08) Honestly, your own company.
Julian Hayes II
(42:10) I'm curious, what does success mean to you?
Chris Smith
(42:16) You know, that's a beautiful question. (42:19) And I think there are a few ingredients to that. (42:23) From a business point of view, if you like, or a work point of view, again, for me, having the respect of the masses is very, very important.
(42:35) To me, that is success right there, because it means, you know, the majority of people, no matter what level they're at, have really regarded what you've done well. (42:47) Even if you weren't the CEO, it doesn't matter. (42:50) You've made things better for them.
(42:52) It's had an effect on them. (42:54) And when the most junior people come up and say to you, well, isn't that, what a beautiful thing that is. (43:00) So, from that point of view, that would mean an awful lot to me.
(43:05) From a family point of view, clearly you want them to be safe and happy, optimistic, not needy, especially optimistic in a difficult world, and strong enough to know that they can look after themselves, have a beautiful life, and actually raise children themselves in the same fashion. (43:29) So, it's about building a family. (43:33) It's just strong.
(43:34) It doesn't mean it's going to be without troubles, but truly one that is a lot of love in that family and have wonderful friends and see the world, you know, as the wonderful place it is. (43:49) It's not for so many people, but the truth is it is for a lot as well. (43:56) But we need to devote some of our life to making it better for those people who haven't, who aren't as fortunate.
Julian Hayes II
(44:01) Mm-hmm. (44:03) And how would you like to be remembered when they're talking about you? (44:08) What are they going to say about Chris?
Chris Smith
(44:11) You know, Julian, I really would just like to think that I made a difference, you know, made things a bit better. (44:17) Yes, I would. (44:20) I mean, what more can we ask, really, if in our later years we made things better and they lived a life that others could aspire to be like?
(44:30) And my mother was like that. (44:32) She was 99 when she passed away last year, and she lived life to the full. (44:38) My father, he came from a difficult upbringing.
(44:41) He was a man I just admire so much because he achieved so much, and he was a gentle man. (44:49) So, I think I'd like to think that I could mirror some parts of both of them and have made a positive difference to the world, I think. (44:58) Yes.
Julian Hayes II
(45:00) And the last question here is if someone comes up to you in a coffee shop and they asked you, what are one to three things that I can do today to become a better leader? (45:13) What would you tell them?
Chris Smith
(45:16) Oh, okay. (45:18) The first thing is listen, ask, ask, ask. (45:22) Don't tell.
(45:24) I would say that. (45:26) That would be one. (45:28) The second one would be if someone is affecting you, it tells you more about you than them.
(45:37) Remember that. (45:38) It doesn't mean you're wrong, but it means you've reached your limit with that person, the issue, or I've just reached my limit, I maybe should hand over to someone else to handle this issue at the moment because I'm not up to it and maybe seek some assistance myself. (45:56) The third one I would say, and there's so many here, the third one I'd say is what I call, use what I call the paradox.
(46:03) The paradox for me is accepting someone else's right to their view, even if it's totally counter to yours. (46:12) It may be horrific to you, but we're trying to get a result. (46:16) But the moment you accept their right to their view, that is the moment you may start to turn them in your favour that they'll start thinking, hang on a second, at least that person respects me enough and we can start to negotiate.
(46:31) We can start to talk because that's what the really big leaders are doing going around the world every day, Julian. (46:37) They're just trying to keep a lid on things in the Middle East and everywhere else. (46:41) It doesn't mean they can solve it, but it does mean that they can actually get an answer.
(46:47) They're trying to get a result here. (46:49) Not everyone you work with or who works for you is going to be on the same page. (46:54) But that's a key, just accept their right to their view, even if it's, it may be horrific, but at least we need to get a result and not argue about this.
(47:05) So, they'd be three keys I would give.
Julian Hayes II
(47:08) And that's a beautiful way to wrap up this conversation. (47:11) Listeners, viewers out there, go get this book that's in my hand, Leadership at 43,000 Feet, fantastic book, awesome book cover, well-designed. (47:22) I really enjoyed it.
(47:23) I'm almost done with it and it's been a fantastic read. (47:27) So, definitely any type of leader out there, it needs to be on your bookshelf. (47:31) And it's also very inspiring and it's a good adventure as well.
(47:34) It's like you're travelling around the world with him as well. (47:36) So, with that said, Chris, where can listeners keep up with you at and learn more about you?
Chris Smith
(47:42) I have my website, this is aculturalleadership.com. (47:46) My email address is on there, aculturalleadership at gmail.com. (47:51) I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, and the books through Amazon and all the good bookstores.
(47:58) So, but I can send books out through my website as well. (48:01) So, yeah, it'd be lovely to hear from people, Julian. (48:04) Thank you.
Julian Hayes II
(48:05) Awesome to hear, awesome to hear. (48:06) And listeners, I'm going to, before I do my send-off, I'll read another sentence and another reminder for you from the book is good things, big things, they're not just for other people, they're for you too. (48:16) And so, until next time, stay awesome, be limitless, and as always, go be the CEO of your health and your life.
(48:22) Peace.
